I guess you are saying that I should just keep my mouth shut. I agree with you
that we don't all have to agree and of course we won't. I, too, was upset by
someone stating that they KNOW that long term democracy will not work in this
case. Talk about "oversimplfied"!! Not only do I disagree, but I don't think
one person's beliefs should be written as fact.
I'll go back to staying out of this stuff ........and just get what I need to
learn about OST from this list. It's clear that it is not open to share......
Judy
----- Original Message -----
From: Agneta Setterwall
To: osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 10:26 AM
Subject: Re: Survival of the Cooperative
Judy,
When I read what you have written I feel upset. I feel upset and hurt by the
irony, the aggressiveness, the selfrighteousness, the oversimplyfied
statements.
We are, I believe, many many persons in the world who in a way love US, and
at the same time are frightened by the role US plays today. We are also
frightened by terrorism and by fundamentalism of all kinds. All kinds.
We don´t have to agree at all on this list. And, we have to refrain from
verbal tricks if we want this list to be the global open space where we can
handle complexity together.
I might be wrong.
Agneta Setterwall, Sweden
Spady's wrote:
Funda writes:
"a long term democracy (at least freedom of expression for everybody) can
not be created by force."
The big question I have for you to think about is...Who has force been used
against in the Iraq war? It isn't the people who are trying to build the
democratic society. The U.S. and it's allies forced the tyrants out so that
the Iraqi people are no longer supressed and can live in long term democracy.
So.......how can you say that it won't work?? You have to break it down to who
the force is being used on. Can the tyrants like Saddam freely express
themselves??........absolutely not. He gave up that right when he chose to
kill innocent people.
I guess "time will tell" if the long term democracy works in Iraq but at
this point, I don't think you can accurately conclude that it won't......
As for your comments on why we can't discuss 'this and that' and all have a
group hug........do you honestly think that's even possible with people like
Saddam??.....or UBL? Please.........
Judy
----- Original Message -----
From: Funda Oral
To: osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 6:57 AM
Subject: Survival of the Cooperative
from the essay :
"The researchers at the Santa Fe Institute have denominated
self-organizing
systems Complex Adaptive Systems. The key word is adaptive, which
indicates
that the system, be that molecular or human, is constantly adapting to its
internal and external environment seeking a better fit, a better way of
getting along in the world. This might also be called learning, for the
system is not only finding better ways to be, it is also remembering them
for future use. In short a body of knowledge is being built which will
enable higher levels of survival."
"Collective consciousness in this case is not to be confused with deep
shared consciousness manifest in the Jungian archetypes, but rather a
functional intelligence that appeared capable of observing a situation,
consider the options, and then take concerted action – all without a word
spoken and in an incredibly short period of time (minutes). How this works, I
don’t have a clue, but in the situations where the collective consciousness
became manifest I found myself reminded of the behavioral shift of the ant
colony when they moved from random search to well ordered columns, bringing
home the tart, all of which seemed to happen with the snap of a finger. I
suppose if ants can do it, humans might be capable as well."
some reflections on wars, cooperation, open space etc ;
I agree that a sudden need or crises can cause quick self organisation
and a shift in collective consciousness (i.e wars, natural disasters).
However self organisation for a quick reaction doesn't mean that a
healthy community ( democracy, peace, long term cooperation, civilization)
has been built.
I studied business and not psychology or sociology but from life
experiences i know that "fear" prevents a open space, a long term democracy
(at least freedom of expression for everybody) can not be created by
force.
Wars are different then natural disasters as they are made by human.
Survival should be the easiest achievement when a group of human being
comes together. So the big question for me is why we are still at that level
after 14M years? why we can not discuss how we can develop alltogether in
peace, joy and richness? why we don't discuss how we can
establish a better cooperation, better ways of exchange among different
cultures, religions, regions, countries etc ?
Funda
----- Original Message -----
From: Jack Ricchiuto
To: osl...@listserv.boisestate..edu
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 4:20 AM
Subject: Re: Survival of the Cooperative
Reflecting the way ecologists today are starting to redefine "fitness",
author Robert Ulanowicz defines fitness as “the ability of a species to play a
role in the web of ecological processes.”
Jack
~~~~~~~~~~
jack ricchiuto
two.one.six/three.seven.three/seven.four.seven.five
www.designinglife.com / www.appreciativeleadership..org
------------Original Message------------
From: Steve Gawron <gaw...@megsinet.net>
To: osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu
Date: Wed, Feb-9-2005 6:02 PM
Subject: Re: Survival of the Cooperative
Hello Don and all,
There is an interesting book by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi which
supports that
concept of survival of ideas in a Darwinian context. The book is
called
"Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience", ISBN 0-06-016253-8
In brief, a "flow" experience is akin to reading a book you cannot
put down.
I hope you enjoy the read.
Steve Gawron
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Ferretti" <dferr...@placer.ca.gov>
To: <osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 4:34 PM
Subject: Survival of the Cooperative
> I can give you a lot of detail to back this up but I will not take
up
> air time here to do that. I just wanted to say that I know for a
fact
> that the "survival of the fittest" mantra was not even spoken by
Darwin.
> But, his whole body of work seems to have been boiled down to that
idea.
> I have my theory as to why that is. But, if you really look at all
of
> that work, the role of cooperation, adaptation and flexibility
plays a
> much more important role. We did not make it this far through
> competition, but through pervasive cooperation.
>
> http://placer.networkofcare.org
> www.placer.ca.gov/cfc
> First 5 - Placer CFC
> Don Ferretti - Director
> 530.886.1824
> 530.886.1810 (fax)
>
> *
> *
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