I most certainly do not think that I (nor the US) is always right. I don't
believe that debates should take a right/wrong side. I simply did not
understand the thinking that was posted and I truly wanted to better
understand. I'm not sure why you all keep telling me that others may disagree.
I know that and I completely accept it and want others to state if they
disagree. If I didn't feel that way, I wouldn't even be reading this list.
But......I didn't expect someone to make me feel as if my opinion didn't
matter. I think that when someone says "we should refrain from verbal tricks"
(tricks......what tricks?), that's saying you shouldn't have said what you did.
I don't see any other way than to take that as "my opinion shouldn't have been
expressed"...
Thanks for your apology.
Judy
----- Original Message -----
From: Esther Ewing
To: osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 10:52 AM
Subject: Re: Survival of the Cooperative
Judy:
No one wants you to keep your mouth shut. We are very open to sharing. And
you need to know that when you express your opinion, others may not agree with
you and will say so.
Where did anyone tell you that you shouldn't express your opinion? I
certainly welcome it.
And it's not about being right or not being right. It's about the space on
this list being open to all of us expressing ourselves.
I don't know how you did it but to me your comments came across as a
statement of fact. Perhaps I misunderstood you. It's awfully easy to assume
feelings or emotions without hearing the tone of voice. So perhaps I read into
your comments that you were saying that you were right and others were wrong.
If I misunderstood you, I'm sorry.
Esther
I guess you are saying that I should just keep my mouth shut. I agree with
you that we don't all have to agree and of course we won't. I, too, was upset
by someone stating that they KNOW that long term democracy will not work in
this case. Talk about "oversimplfied"!! Not only do I disagree, but I don't
think one person's beliefs should be written as fact.
I'll go back to staying out of this stuff ........and just get what I need
to learn about OST from this list. It's clear that it is not open to
share......
Judy
----- Original Message -----
From: Agneta Setterwall
To: osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 10:26 AM
Subject: Re: Survival of the Cooperative
Judy,
When I read what you have written I feel upset. I feel upset and hurt by
the irony, the aggressiveness, the selfrighteousness, the oversimplyfied
statements.
We are, I believe, many many persons in the world who in a way love US,
and at the same time are frightened by the role US plays today. We are also
frightened by terrorism and by fundamentalism of all kinds. All kinds.
We don´t have to agree at all on this list. And, we have to refrain from
verbal tricks if we want this list to be the global open space where we can
handle complexity together.
I might be wrong.
Agneta Setterwall, Sweden
Spady's wrote:
Funda writes:
"a long term democracy (at least freedom of expression for everybody)
can not be created by force."
The big question I have for you to think about is...Who has force been
used against in the Iraq war? It isn't the people who are trying to build the
democratic society. The U.S. and it's allies forced the tyrants out so that
the Iraqi people are no longer supressed and can live in long term democracy.
So.......how can you say that it won't work?? You have to break it down to who
the force is being used on. Can the tyrants like Saddam freely express
themselves??........absolutely not. He gave up that right when he chose to
kill innocent people.
I guess "time will tell" if the long term democracy works in Iraq but
at this point, I don't think you can accurately conclude that it won't......
As for your comments on why we can't discuss 'this and that' and all
have a group hug........do you honestly think that's even possible with people
like Saddam??.....or UBL? Please.........
Judy
----- Original Message -----
From: Funda Oral
To: osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 6:57 AM
Subject: Survival of the Cooperative
from the essay :
"The researchers at the Santa Fe Institute have denominated
self-organizing
systems Complex Adaptive Systems. The key word is adaptive, which
indicates
that the system, be that molecular or human, is constantly adapting
to its
internal and external environment seeking a better fit, a better way
of
getting along in the world. This might also be called learning, for
the
system is not only finding better ways to be, it is also remembering
them
for future use. In short a body of knowledge is being built which will
enable higher levels of survival."
"Collective consciousness in this case is not to be confused with
deep shared consciousness manifest in the Jungian archetypes, but rather a
functional intelligence that appeared capable of observing a situation,
consider the options, and then take concerted action – all without a word
spoken and in an incredibly short period of time (minutes). How this works, I
don’t have a clue, but in the situations where the collective consciousness
became manifest I found myself reminded of the behavioral shift of the ant
colony when they moved from random search to well ordered columns, bringing
home the tart, all of which seemed to happen with the snap of a finger. I
suppose if ants can do it, humans might be capable as well."
some reflections on wars, cooperation, open space etc ;
I agree that a sudden need or crises can cause quick self
organisation and a shift in collective consciousness (i.e wars, natural
disasters).
However self organisation for a quick reaction doesn't mean that a
healthy community ( democracy, peace, long term cooperation, civilization)
has been built.
I studied business and not psychology or sociology but from life
experiences i know that "fear" prevents a open space, a long term democracy
(at least freedom of expression for everybody) can not be created by
force.
Wars are different then natural disasters as they are made by human.
Survival should be the easiest achievement when a group of human
being comes together. So the big question for me is why we are still at that
level
after 14M years? why we can not discuss how we can develop
alltogether in peace, joy and richness? why we don't discuss how we can
establish a better cooperation, better ways of exchange among
different cultures, religions, regions, countries etc ?
Funda
----- Original Message -----
From: Jack Ricchiuto
To: osl...@listserv.boisestate..edu
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 4:20 AM
Subject: Re: Survival of the Cooperative
Reflecting the way ecologists today are starting to redefine
"fitness", author Robert Ulanowicz defines fitness as “the ability of a species
to play a role in the web of ecological processes.”
Jack
~~~~~~~~~~
jack ricchiuto
two.one.six/three.seven.three/seven.four.seven.five
www.designinglife.com / www.appreciativeleadership..org
------------Original Message------------
From: Steve Gawron <gaw...@megsinet.net>
To: osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu
Date: Wed, Feb-9-2005 6:02 PM
Subject: Re: Survival of the Cooperative
Hello Don and all,
There is an interesting book by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi which
supports that
concept of survival of ideas in a Darwinian context. The book is
called
"Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience", ISBN 0-06-016253-8
In brief, a "flow" experience is akin to reading a book you
cannot put down.
I hope you enjoy the read.
Steve Gawron
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Ferretti" <dferr...@placer.ca.gov>
To: <osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 4:34 PM
Subject: Survival of the Cooperative
> I can give you a lot of detail to back this up but I will not
take up
> air time here to do that. I just wanted to say that I know for
a fact
> that the "survival of the fittest" mantra was not even spoken
by Darwin.
> But, his whole body of work seems to have been boiled down to
that idea.
> I have my theory as to why that is. But, if you really look at
all of
> that work, the role of cooperation, adaptation and flexibility
plays a
> much more important role. We did not make it this far through
> competition, but through pervasive cooperation.
>
> http://placer.networkofcare.org
> www.placer.ca.gov/cfc
> First 5 - Placer CFC
> Don Ferretti - Director
> 530.886.1824
> 530.886.1810 (fax)
>
> *
> *
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Esther Ewing
The Change Alliance
330 East 38th St., Suite 53K
New York, NY 10016, USA
Telephone: 212-661-6024, Fax: 866-296-6712
Assisting organizations to build capability
www.changealliance.com
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