Yes Harrison, I think this is one of the central points, To see all interventions/events, especially OS events as an integrated part of an ongoing complex (overall self-organized) process, a stream with a sequence, ... a sequence, where we find an adequate point of going into the stream, becoming sometimes even a strong interventionist (or better not not, if not necessary according to the principle of minimal invtervention) but finally going fishing, going for a drink, a nap, becoming "irrelevant" again. As I see it, and as you pointed out clearly that we can not escape the empowerment/dis-impowerment contradiction (in the sense of 'aporim' or 'aporia' (you and others, I also sometimes use the Yin&Yang wording, but I like the old greek term because it became very rich during a career from Plato to Hegel etc but was somehow forgotten in our own culture)
The recent "enrichment" of the OST set of principles by the 5th one, makes clear, that such events are always integrated in an ongoing living (historic) process I think. Bernd On Feb 26, 2012, at 1:13 AM, Harrison Owen wrote: > Bernd – No problem. Totally understand where you are coming from. At the end > of the day if you empower someone, by whatever means or degree – you have, at > least to some real extent, dis-empowered them. Or at the very least, further > encumbered their situation. All that said there are indeed times when the > ONLY thing you can do in the moment is hand out a fish. Starving people, > still less dead ones – don’t learn very well… to fish or anything else. > However, if your actions end with fish distribution, or almost as > destructive, you do teach them to fish, but then hover over their shoulders > to make sure they do it RIGHT, well that is a different kettle of fish (sorry > about that J). Maybe there is a sequence here – Fish Distributors, Fishing > Teachers, and then “Gone fish ‘in” – looking for other fish to fry. Or > something. > > Harrison > > Harrison Owen > 7808 River Falls Dr. > Potomac, MD 20854 > USA > > 189 Beaucaire Ave. (summer) > Camden, Maine 20854 > > Phone 301-365-2093 > (summer) 207-763-3261 > > www.openspaceworld.com > www.ho-image.com (Personal Website) > To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of OSLIST > Go to:http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org > > From: oslist-boun...@lists.openspacetech.org > [mailto:oslist-boun...@lists.openspacetech.org] On Behalf Of Bernhard Weber > Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 1:24 AM > To: World wide Open Space Technology email list > Subject: Re: [OSList] Teach Them to Fish / A Note to My Friends > > Harrison, > > I have been living so long under conditions where the giver/beggar word > pairing is not only a metaphor (Beira is the capital of Sofala province in > Mozambique), so I had to deal with the problem also at a very practical level > and on base of that I want to say: > > I fully agree > and would like to complete something that I wrote in my last posting in > answering what Artur has written. > > Yes the giver-beggar relation creates conditions for helplessness and > continued dependence and subservience. And yes, the dynamics is independent > from altruistic intentions. > And I would complete, if you have a feeling for yourself and/or a spiritual > perspective this means, such kind of giving is also bad for the giver, > his/her mental costume and/or karma. > > But when I wrote in my last posting: sometimes you should also give the fish > (meaning that nobody who is starved can learn) isn't that a contradiction? > Yes it is, but > a) contradictions as such are not necessarily bad. At least they are good for > triggering thinking processes if not for more (like being a basic ingredient > for self-organization, this also refers to the dissence-thread of this groups) > b) it all depends on the real process. If temporary dependence is a price for > helping out from helplessness so that further steps can follow, like > learning, like disappearing of the giver, teacher, blurring/integrating of > roles to teacherlearners and learnerteachers, I would say it is an acceptable > price > > Bernd > > On Feb 24, 2012, at 3:01 AM, Harrison Owen wrote: > > > The secondary point may be less than obvious. When you are simply handed a > fish the conditions for learned helplessness and continued dependence, to say > nothing of subservience are created. Even with the best, most altruistic > intentions in the world, a fish handout has its problems. > > _______________________________________________ > OSList mailing list > To post send emails to OSList@lists.openspacetech.org > To unsubscribe send an email to oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
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