well said indeed :-)
On Sat, Aug 10, 2013 at 12:53 PM, Chris Corrigan <chris.corri...@gmail.com>wrote: > I think my experience in th Art of Hosting and Genuine Contact speaks to > me if the longing we all have to see that these methods are pointing at a > way of being, that there is something beyond the methods that, if you learn > about it, makes things fly. > > So I love OST - it is my home place in this world, the method I know the > best and use whenever I can. And I have come to appreciate that to practice > OST well one needs a deeper practice. For me the Art of Hosting (which is > simply a four fold practice of being present, participating, holding space > and co-creating) has brought me into contact with another global community > that is learning about broad participatory approaches to life's complexity. > > And there is a generational shift too as many people in the Art of Hosting > community are much younger than me and they are bringing experience from a > world in which open Space and World Cafe are just the way you do things. > They have never known life without these methods and so their ears and > hearts are tuned differently and as a result I am blown away with the > continued intergenerational learning that that community offers me. > > So yes, we all travel in many circles and its nice to be back in the pub > where we met, where the wine is good and the martinis inspire clarity and > audacity. > > Chris C > > -- > CHRIS CORRIGAN > Harvest Moon Consultants > www.chriscorrigan.com > > *Art of Hosting - Participatory Leadership and Social Collaboration*, > Bowen Island, BC <http://aohrivendell.withtank.com/> November 11-14,2013 > > On 2013-08-10, at 8:06 AM, Chris Weaver <chrisgweave...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hey Chris C! > I think our views are very much in accord. Great to share the table with > you. Speaking of "communities of practice" as I referred to in my response > to Artur, the *Art of Hosting* is a group that I have never made the time > to explore directly but have always respected and appreciated from a > distance. (And speaking of the perceived *value* that can accompany a * > name*, if a potential collaborator ever told me that he/she was active in > the Art of Hosting community, I would immediately feel a level of deepened > trust and assumed shared purpose). I love how the world of Open Space > includes these constellations of communities, through whose connections > learning and evolution are always happening. To spend some time studying > the *form *that these various communities of practice take (how, why, > with what results) would be a valuable endeavor some day for somebody :-) > w/Love, > Chris > > > > On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 1:37 PM, Chris Corrigan > <chris.corri...@gmail.com>wrote: > >> Hiya ,Chris! >> >> I have no trouble with givens as a practice. I learned that from Birgitt >> too although these days i talk about it as working in context. For me it is >> all part of setting the container for the work. In the Art of Hosting >> workshops many of us do we spend a lot of time on design, reasoning that >> the methods are simple actually but understanding the pre and post meeting >> work, working with the context and setting and holding a container for >> cocreation are essential to good work getting done. >> >> I have no problem with people receiving certificates for attending >> workshops but one simply can't guarantee performance with certification in >> this field. >> >> Pass the wine. >> >> C >> >> -- >> CHRIS CORRIGAN >> Harvest Moon Consultants >> www.chriscorrigan.com >> >> *Art of Hosting - Participatory Leadership and Social Collaboration*, >> Bowen Island, BC <http://aohrivendell.withtank.com/> November 11-14,2013 >> >> On 2013-08-09, at 12:48 AM, "ei...@gatewayc.com" <ei...@gatewayc.com> >> wrote: >> >> Dear Chris I agree about all you said, especially about the givens. I >> would even dare to say that the prework and the discussion there is what >> opens the space. What I do at the beginning of an OST meeting is ritual, >> also important but still ritual. >> Thanks for your story. >> Eiwor >> >> Skickat från min HTC >> >> ----- Reply message ----- >> Från: "Chris Weaver" <chrisgweave...@gmail.com> >> Till: "World wide Open Space Technology email list" < >> oslist@lists.openspacetech.org> >> Rubrik: [OSList] Certification? >> Datum: fre, aug 9, 2013 06:45 >> >> >> Greetings All, >> >> Ah, I can't resist jumping in to stir the pot. It is an honor to join a >> thread peopled by so many folks whom I respect (and appreciate and love) so >> much. I invite you to settle in for rather a long story, which may, at >> some point, have something to do with "certification." >> >> After learning of Open Space in Anne Stadler's kitchen, I walked around >> as a newbie at the OSonOS in Monterrey (the one fifteen years ago, from >> which Harrison was unexpectedly absent, due to a nasty flu, I believe), >> with my jaw hanging open to meet so many bold and brilliant facilitators (I >> remember especially Michael P, Alan Stewart, Brian Bainbridge, Roxy, and >> Birgitt Bolton) sharing stories that I sweetly strove to wrap my head at >> least half-way around. >> >> For a few years I engaged actively on the OSLIST as I began to facilitate >> some OST meetings (without even "finishing the book," as I recall) in the >> Seattle school where I worked as a teacher. In 1999 I landed here in North >> Carolina, where I attended my first OST workshop as part of the Genuine >> Contact Program with Birgitt (Bolton) Williams who had recently landed a >> few hours away. >> >> Now I will say that I have an assumption only that at around that time >> there was something of a "falling out" between Birgitt and her work and the >> work of some other OS facilitators. I do not know, nor need to know, the >> details. But I do know that there are some points of practice that have >> generated some heated passion in the community and that I think are worthy >> of putting on the storytelling table. (I know that there is not supposed >> to be a table, but I suddenly imagine myself with Jeff, Chris, Peggy, >> Harrison, Michael in a pub somewhere with a rough wooden table, on which I >> am happily uncorking a bottle of pinot noir.) >> >> When I completed the Genuine Contact "Working with OST" workshop, I >> received a certificate, but not a certification. (The distinction is >> important because there was no intention on the workshop leader's part to >> evaluate my "competence" in any way.) Based on my participation in the >> four-day experience, I could, if I chose, refer to myself as an authorized >> "Genuine Contact professional." The workshop included an exploration of >> the form & essence of OST, as gifted so effectively in Harrison's *User's >> Guide. *The workshop also shared some suggested approaches and tools >> for working in depth with the sponsor of an OST meeting (usually a >> leadership team within an organization), both prior to and after the OST >> event. My own understanding is that, by referring to myself as a GC >> professional if I chose, I would be sharing the simple message that I had >> had exposure to the approach of using OST that included these pre- and >> post-OST meeting practices and tools. The choice of whether and how to >> apply these practices and tools was up to me. >> >> So that is the part that relates to this thread topic of certification. >> As a practitioner, I honor the open-source nature of OST as Harrison's >> "discovery" and gift to the world. I refer people to the *User's Guide*(and >> also the >> *Non-User's Guide *and other community resources) frequently. >> >> As an aside, I continued in the years that followed to participate in >> workshops on other methodologies that are shared through the Genuine >> Contact Program (most notably *Whole Person Process Facilitation*, which >> I use very often). I collaborated with my Genuine Contact colleagues >> around the world in developing the minimal appropriate structure for our >> international community. I participated in many mentoring circles, >> completed the Train the Trainer workshop, and became one of the 43 >> "co-owners" of the program. I also shifted my virtual community >> participation to the GC List, and dropped off of the OSLIST for a number of >> years. (I am enjoying being back.) >> >> So here, the plot thickens :-). One of the practices included in the GC >> "Working with OST" workshop is the use of...the "givens." So, lubricated >> with wine, I am going to place the notion of givens on the wooden >> storytelling table for our enjoyment. (This is worthy of its own thread, >> of course, but I'll just keep going here.) >> >> I have only infrequently worked as an external consultant/facilitator. >> Most of my work with OST has been within schools and community >> organizations. Over the years, I have come to value highly the practices I >> learned in the GCP of working with the sponsor prior to and after an OST >> (and I know that among other OST facilitators, pre- and post- meetings such >> as these are skillfully used and valued). >> >> In my experience, the purpose of careful preparation with the sponsoring >> team is to assist them in considering the state of their organization. >> What is the story-line that has brought them to considering an OST >> meeting? What's happening in terms of the grief cycle within their >> organization? What (deeply now) is the *purpose* of the meeting? What >> (deeply now) is the *context? *Basically, I ask the questions, and the >> team has the conversations. All this I explicitly place in the reality >> that when you sponsor an OST, there is not, nor should there be, any >> turning back. >> >> I use the givens as an essential tool in this process. I draw a circle >> on a flip chart and say, If this circle represents the open space, what are >> the non-negotiables that form the parameters of the open space? >> >> In the past, there have been passionate objections to this practice on >> this list, based, I think, on the belief that to establish givens is to >> close the space before it is even opened. My long-haul experience within >> organizations has taught me something different. >> >> What happens when I ask what the non-negotiables are is that a bunch of >> stuff goes up on the flip chart. Then, I probe each one, and ask, "Is this >> REALLY a given at this time for this meeting?" The fifteen givens get >> whittled down to twelve, and then eight, and then maybe five (ish). As you >> can imagine, the level of trust that organizational leaders have in the >> people plays in heavily. I let it be. I cannot make them trust more; I >> can only model trust, and hold space for trust. >> >> But I also find that the few givens that remain are, every time, very >> important and meaningful. Some examples: Perhaps the organizational >> purpose is a given, and perhaps there is value in re-sharing the >> organizational purpose at the start of the OST. Perhaps there has been a >> year of good work by a sub-group within the organization that has >> culminated in a policy that not everyone attending the OST is aware of, and >> that policy is a given. Perhaps a "law of the land" that administrators, >> but not all participants, know about is a given. Perhaps it is a given >> that the organization will stay within a certain budget, and any ideas >> generated beyond the budget will have to include the funding source to >> support them. >> >> Yes, the givens are shared with the group at the start of the OST. In my >> experience, this does not close the space, but rather it opens the space >> clearly and honestly. More importantly, it is a tool for building trust. >> When participants hear their formal organizational leaders share, clearly >> and transparently, what the givens are, they are more trusting that their >> own ideas will be honored after the meeting and not squelched. >> >> And this is what happens. Using givens is a way to profoundly mitigate >> the phenomenon, with which any seasoned OST facilitator is familiar, of >> leadership freaking out and clamping down on the results of an OST. The >> practice does not (thankfully) prevent the productive chaos and re-framing >> that happens after the meeting, but it greatly reduces the phenomenon of >> *reactionary fear* on the part of formal leadership. The result is that >> leadership is more inclined to sponsor another OST soon, and indeed to >> invite other groups withing the organization to utilize OST themselves. >> >> Perhaps because I have worked inside organizations for many years, I have >> a deep respect for the challenges that formal leaders face. Perhaps an >> organization is possible without any formal leaders, but I have not yet >> encountered this. In the school where I work, there is a fragile and >> indeed even tender respect for our formal leaders whose responsibility it >> is to hold the space for the organization in the community. When >> leadership is in its integrity, followership is a natural and beautiful >> thing. >> >> Okay, I will pour the last of the bottle into all the glasses. Sadly, I >> won't hear your fine words until tomorrow, but so it is, according to the >> odd and illusory parameters of space & time. >> >> Take Care, with Love, >> Chris >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 8, 2013 at 8:21 PM, Donna Read < >> donna.r...@managing4wellness.org> wrote: >> >>> Amen to that, Harrison! Blessings, Donna >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Aug 8, 2013, at 17:36, "Harrison Owen" <hho...@verizon.net> wrote: >>> >>> Jeff – as a sometime perpetrator and totally confused (certifiable) I >>> can attest that if at any point I were to intimate that I actually knew >>> what I was doing, that would be a significant error. However I feel quite >>> comfortable in my not-knowing if only because the “process” (OST) is not >>> something I “do.” Under the best of circumstances my contribution is to >>> invite folks to do what they already know how to do – to be what they >>> already are. It always works, and it works even better when I get out of >>> the way. **** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> Harrison**** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> Harrison Owen**** >>> >>> 7808 River Falls Dr.**** >>> >>> Potomac, MD 20854**** >>> >>> USA**** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> 189 Beaucaire Ave. (summer)**** >>> >>> Camden, Maine 04843**** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> Phone 301-365-2093**** >>> >>> (summer) 207-763-3261**** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> www.openspaceworld.com <http://www.openspaceworld.com%20> **** >>> >>> www.ho-image.com <http://www.ho-image.com%20> (Personal Website)**** >>> >>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of >>> OSLIST Go to: >>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org**** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> *From:* oslist-boun...@lists.openspacetech.org [ >>> mailto:oslist-boun...@lists.openspacetech.org<oslist-boun...@lists.openspacetech.org>] >>> *On Behalf Of *Jeff Aitken >>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 08, 2013 7:17 PM >>> *To:* World wide Open Space Technology email list >>> *Subject:* Re: [OSList] Certification?**** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> having been trained by the motley lot who dreamed up this stuff, i can >>> attest that even that great privilege does not mean that i know much or >>> should be let near the folks in your organization.**** >>> >>> **** >>> >>> jeff.**** >>> >>> On Thu, Aug 8, 2013 at 3:53 PM, Peggy Holman <pe...@peggyholman.com> >>> wrote:**** >>> >>> To be certified confused…where do I sign up? **** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> Chris -- thanks for your decidedly clear and unconfused comments on >>> certification. **** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> I seem to recall in some past conversation that rather than >>> certification, lineage is alternative to the client conundrum of who am I >>> hiring? To be trained by the creator, or by someone who trained with >>> creator, on down the line seems to have worked for a variety of practice >>> traditions through the ages.**** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> Still no guarantee, as Chris noted below.**** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> appreciatively,**** >>> >>> Peggy **** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> On Aug 8, 2013, at 10:35 AM, Chris Corrigan <ch...@chriscorrigan.com> >>> wrote:**** >>> >>> >>> >>> **** >>> >>> Ohh I love this topic too, because as we go on and on it becomes clearer >>> and clearer to me that Harrison's original idea (which predated Open >>> Source) was sheer genius. There is an expression in english: "Closing the >>> barn doors after the horse has left." It's too late to certify people in >>> Open Space Technology, and thank God! **** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> You simply cannot certify people as a way to protect the brand and the >>> reason is simple.**** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> Certification is based on an industrial quality assurance model In >>> other words, every product leaving the factory is guaranteed to work the >>> way we say it is going to work. If it doesn't you can have your money back >>> and we'll give you a new one that works. Every product can be tested >>> before it leaves the factory to be sure it works reliably,**** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> You simply cannot do that with facilitators. No amount of certification >>> will guarantee that a client will get what they want every single time. >>> And a facilitator taking a single training in Open Space or some other >>> method will by definition NOT be perfect leaving the factory. You need to >>> develop a practice, and even still there are contexts and situations that >>> will challenge and surprise you. "Be Prepared to Be Surprised" is the only >>> certification I can reliably give to anyone that has trained with me. We >>> are not engineers, architects or doctors. We are people whose skill is in >>> responding well to myriad and changing contexts.**** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> The International Association of Facilitators went down this route. I >>> have seen some horrible facilitation done by people who are certified by >>> the IAF. So much so that I have no faith in that certification as standing >>> for anything. It is a worthy idea but it simply cannot be implemented.* >>> *** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> Open Space is a brand like brainstorming is a brand, like using markers >>> and flipcharts is a brand, like parliamentary procedure is a brand. In a >>> few more decades, with any luck, the world will have forgotten where it all >>> came from and it will just become a basic operating system of groups. In >>> the last 10 years that prospect has really come on as people have stolen, >>> mashed up, mixed together, modified and redesigned Open Space Technology. >>> Participatory process is becoming an acceptable way of doing things, and >>> will only become more so. Most conference goers for example are now able >>> to report on conference evaluations that they would have rather had a world >>> cafe or an Open Space than a keynote address. I see it all the time. >>> There is a fluency in the world with this method and others.**** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> I fundamentally distrust anyone who makes a concerted effort to certify >>> Open Space. If Harrison Owen, the guy that put it all down on paper, >>> refuses to do it for excellent reasons, then I wonder what gives anyone >>> else the right to do it. **** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> And for me that is a terrific example of how to steward something that >>> really has an impact in the world. Offer it up and let it go and only >>> defend it from those that would try to own it. Thankfully Open Space >>> Technology I think is at a place in the world where it defies ownership. >>> Anyone who tries it will simply be laughed off the stage. **** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> Chris**** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> On Thu, Aug 8, 2013 at 9:29 AM, Kári Gunnarsson < >>> kari.gunnars...@simnet.is> wrote:**** >>> >>> I love the Certification dialogue and I think that the recurrence of >>> the dialogue is necessary. As I have looked around of things that >>> trace there roots to open space or give the impression to be similar >>> is some way. Some of these processes have the Certification hierarchy >>> protecting the Quality of the Brand and the revenues steaming from the >>> property that the brand name is. >>> >>> The hierarchy of the Certification process associated with Brand names >>> is a way to close space and create tension witch in turn will fuel the >>> flow of cash from the people that can pay, excluding the people that >>> can not. It is an exercise in creating a closed system to fuel a >>> business plan. And naturally, any start up consultancy offering some >>> tools will need some flow of cash to pay the phone bill. >>> >>> When I was at Wosonon in Berlin back in 2010, I head one participant >>> saying. "You always have the clients that you deserve". >>> >>> By knowing that the space for clients is well open and the law of >>> mobility is active from them is perhaps a little scary. This scare can >>> be remedied by letting go of the outcome and commit time to prepare to >>> be of more benefit for my future clients. >>> >>> Here I have opened up many lines of thoughts that stay with me when I >>> think about this topic. What I would like to have written down is some >>> sort of vision on how to go about using the open space as a central >>> idea and core philosophy in a practise. >>> >>> On Certification, my vote would go for "no central Certification", but >>> I don't mind that various offspring's of Open Space go ahead and >>> create there own brand name with the associated cash flow headaches >>> and salaried sales staff of Certification trainings in there bid to >>> get a bought with a handsome cash out from lager companies. >>> >>> That said, I would like to see more people get interested in the >>> "boring" methought of meeting, working and begin together called open >>> space. >>> >>> By the way, I am bored to tears by people hearing about open space and >>> begin pissed off by the way open office layout (also called open space >>> in my country) has been ruining there work experiences. >>> >>> This is starting to be a long rant, Ill stop now. >>> >>> With the breeze from Iceland >>> Kári**** >>> >>> >>> >>> On 8 August 2013 14:50, Harrison Owen <hho...@verizon.net> wrote: >>> > Certification (whatever that might mean) seems to be a perennial >>> topic. I >>> > suppose that is understandable, but for myself it is a horrible idea. >>> My >>> > reasons are several. First of all it is too much work. The thought of >>> > developing the criteria, programs, and even worse, “protecting the >>> brand” is >>> > totally exhausting. We’d have to have certifiers to certify the >>> certifiers >>> > and so on ad infinitum. Second reason – Open Space seems to be taking >>> care >>> > of itself. When folks come on with “A little Open Space,” “Sort of Open >>> > Space,” “Modified Open Space,” ... the participants (increasingly) >>> > understand that they aren’t getting the genuine article—and say so. I >>> recall >>> > one instance where a large gentleman stood up in the middle of the >>> “program” >>> > and loudly proclaimed, “This sure ain’t Open Space! I’m out of here.” >>> And he >>> > walked. I guess you could call that “Market Certification.” Best of >>> all --- >>> > it works all by itself. One more thing not to do!! >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Harrison >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Harrison Owen >>> > >>> > 7808 River Falls Dr. >>> > >>> > Potomac, MD 20854 >>> > >>> > USA >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > 189 Beaucaire Ave. (summer) >>> > >>> > Camden, Maine 04843 >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Phone 301-365-2093 >>> > >>> > (summer) 207-763-3261 >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > www.openspaceworld.com >>> > >>> > www.ho-image.com (Personal Website) >>> > >>> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of >>> OSLIST >>> > Go to: >>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >**** >>> >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > OSList mailing list >>> > To post send emails to OSList@lists.openspacetech.org >>> > To unsubscribe send an email to oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org >>> > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: >>> > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kári Gunnarsson >>> kari.gunnars...@simnet.is >>> gsm: +354 8645189 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> OSList mailing list >>> To post send emails to OSList@lists.openspacetech.org >>> To unsubscribe send an email to oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org >>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: >>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org**** >>> >>> >>> >>> **** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> -- **** >>> >>> ---**** >>> >>> CHRIS CORRIGAN >>> Facilitation - Training - Process Design >>> Open Space Technology - Art of Hosting >>> >>> http://www.chriscorrigan.com**** >>> >>> *Upcoming workshops***** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> *Wise Leadership in >>> Practice<http://www.kaasamine.ee/koolitused/wise-leadership-in-practice> >>> * >>> >>> *August 22-25, Sänna Cultural Manor, Estonia* >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> *Art of Hosting - Art of (Inter)action* <http://www.aohmontreal.org/en/> >>> **** >>> >>> *October 8-10, 2013, Montreal, PQ.***** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> *Art of Hosting <http://aohrivendell.withtank.com/> - Participatory >>> Leadership and Social Collaboration***** >>> >>> *November 11-14, 2013**, Bowen Island, BC, Canada.*** >>> >>> * * >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> OSList mailing list >>> To post send emails to OSList@lists.openspacetech.org >>> To unsubscribe send an email to oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org >>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: >>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org**** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> OSList mailing list >>> To post send emails to OSList@lists.openspacetech.org >>> To unsubscribe send an email to oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org >>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: >>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org**** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> OSList mailing list >>> To post send emails to OSList@lists.openspacetech.org >>> To unsubscribe send an email to oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org >>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: >>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> OSList mailing list >>> To post send emails to OSList@lists.openspacetech.org >>> To unsubscribe send an email to oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org >>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: >>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> OSList mailing list >> To post send emails to OSList@lists.openspacetech.org >> To unsubscribe send an email to oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org >> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: >> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> OSList mailing list >> To post send emails to OSList@lists.openspacetech.org >> To unsubscribe send an email to oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org >> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: >> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > OSList mailing list > To post send emails to OSList@lists.openspacetech.org > To unsubscribe send an email to oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org > > > _______________________________________________ > OSList mailing list > To post send emails to OSList@lists.openspacetech.org > To unsubscribe send an email to oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org > >
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