On 2009-Feb-03, at 22:55, David P. Henderson wrote: >> Are you basically saying that you have guns because that's the >> culture >> and the meaning of freedom in America? Or something like that? >> >> "From my cold dead hands" ? >> > Yes, which is why Guns are such a touch stone issue along with > abortion, homosexuality and all the other culture war issues.
Aha... ok so those items right there, abortion and homosexuality are usually the concerns of the pre-modern culture. If we're talking about culture wars, we're talking broadly about the three main cultures, pre- modern, modern, and post-modern culture, which are also on the AQAL diagram. We're looking at the levels or stages of AQAL, which also get plotted on the diagram, where each stage has expression in individual's psychology, group culture, and physical artifacts: http://integralvisioning.org/images/articles/image001.jpg Pre modern, modern and post modern, also broadly mapped as Blue, Orange and Green, or mythic, rational, and early centauric, or agrarian, industrial, and early informational--it is no accident that the agricultural states are the places where you find most of the mythic religious beliefs and values structures. And those are presumably the structures that Obama was referring to when he talked about "people clinging to guns and religion in Pennsylvania". In other words, what you are saying is, guns are not simply a tool, but they have a strong and important meaning in the culture of the mythical / agrarian / premodern parts of USA. Banning guns is tantamount to banning crosses. I realise now that this is very different to South Africa, where there is no strong mythic religious culture established. There, guns are more about Red and just basic Red power drives of crime and warlordism. In thinking about South Africa I was really missing your point about America. Oops. And you know what? I wonder then, given that the modern and post modern cultures really are at war with pre modern religion, I wonder if part of the desire to ban guns, is also partly a desire to further attack the mythical religious culture, given that guns are an expression of that culture. They are, if we are just looking at the cultural quadrant of the diagram, they are like crosses, an object which carries a lot of mythic meaning and significance to many Americans. Or to put it bluntly in everyday language, we all hate American "gun nuts". And it is as if we think that by banning guns we'd somehow reduce the number of nuts, esp. mythic/religious ones. > Additionally, I stating that crime/hunting or other excuses are just > that justifying examples to back up a belief. I'm 41 and have lived > (or spent significant time) in large American cities, DC, NY and SF, > and medium cities Norfolk/Va Beach and Richmond, VA and now live in a > small city in the Central Valley of CA on the Urban/Suburban/Rural > interface. The need for a Gun as protection just isn't that great. > Unless you're engaging in high risk behavior or working/living in > violence prone areas, the Gun just isn't that necessary. I've never > felt the need for one, but I don't advocate restricting access to > guns of any sort, including so-called assault weapons, so long as the > owner/user is properly trained and licensed. > > The problems in America are caused mainly by all the nannies and the > anti-nanny reactionaries; it sucks to be a pragmatist in the US. Is that because pragmatically you don't mind all that mythic religious culture--let people be and let them believe what they want, and have guns if they must, as there is no particular harm, they are free to practice their religion and way of life? IOW, can we please just put an end to these culture wars?? Stefano _______________________________________________ OSX-Nutters mailing list | [email protected] http://lists.tit-wank.com/mailman/listinfo/osx-nutters List hosted at http://cat5.org/
