From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Paul Evrat Sent: Thursday, 5 September 2013 2:21 PM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited
Without doubt any elected official acting out their vested interests (no matter what) belongs behind bars, but we were talking about business lobbying, and I'm saying it's not about making easy lives easier. I never said it was about making easy lives easier. Life for business should be relatively hard. That competitive pressure is what spurs them to improve rather than stagnate. Asking government to make their lives easier should be rebuffed. There is a role for government (and rent seeking beneficiaries if you like) when A. The country is trying to develop a new industry or grow an existing one, B. Phase out an uncompetitive old one, or C, Assist an industry in transition. I'm happy to agree to (c) only. Government should not be trying to "pick winners" - most governments have a dismal record in that sense. However I do agree that we'll face constant disruption in the face of competition (which is now going global), and government has a role in easing the transition for those that are in industries or regions that are going to become obsolete. We need as many educated, in-demand people and businesses as we can get our hands on - and not people with out-dated skills twiddling their thumbs. My point was just that those areas are the main focus of business lobbying, and keeping those areas constant (level playing field) in the face of constant pressures for other changes - left agenda / right agendas, other country's protectionism etc .. Without that and with a fully free-market we'd only have mining, some agriculture, tourism, and some construction serving the employees and needs of those industries that weren't outsourced to cheap labour overseas. Everything else would come from China, India etc .. Sorry - I completely disagree here. The idea that we must to protect Australian business against threats like outsourcing to India and China is exactly the slippery slope that results in the distorting nonsense we see today. Australia has many advantages - a highly educated workforce, first world infrastructure, a robust legal system and this translates into constant innovation and high value goods and services production - the economy is going to do just fine. What sort of people do you want running the country? Haven't we had enough ex-lawyers and unionists. Agree re Berlusconi etc but Turnbull wouldn't make a bad PM. I'm not saying Clive would, but a minority role in government would be a good kick in the pants for the rest of them all and make TV a lot more interesting .. Maybe it comes back to basic political views, do you see the role of government as redistributing wealth from those that build it, or as setting the playing fields and enabling individuals and companies to build wealth so we can afford better welfare safety nets etc. I'm all for free markets - I think that free markets are (in most cases [1]) the best way to improve the lot of the general population in this country. What I don't believe is that business people like Clive are inherently any better at doing this than any other person. A good businessman is not inherently a good economist. Look at half the National party - successful, wealthy farmers, but half are agrarian socialists if you scratch the surface a bit. Cheers Ken [1] I acknowledge that there's market failures due to externalities, information asymmetries, excessive transaction costs, monopolistic markets etc., and so government has a role in trying to ameliorate these failures. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com> [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Ken Schaefer Sent: Thursday, 5 September 2013 12:34 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited Wouldn't you want some sort of lobbying against government outsourcing IT / coding to India etc? And that's what an economist (and I) call "rent seeking" - I'm asking the government to impose an implicit tax/penalty on everyone else (e.g. through paying higher prices) to make life better for myself. Which is why I'm not particularly enamoured of the idea that "business people" running the country is good for "the economy", because what's good for a particular business person is the opposite of what's good for an economy. The same applies to unionists being good for "the economy" - they're not. They're good for their particular rent-seeking constituency. As I said before, there's plenty of business people that have gone into government (Thaksin, Berlusconi) that haven't done anything particularly good for the overall economy, which ultimately is what makes us all better off. Cheers Ken From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com> [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Paul Evrat Sent: Thursday, 5 September 2013 11:58 AM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited Lobbyists are always going to keep themselves busy but that just counters the relentless lobbying by welfare groups for non-economy boosting government spending. Unless you're the big 4 banks or Coles or Woolworths with monopolistic characteristics business is pretty tough even in good times. Shouldn't the car industry lobby for government support to keep some sort of car manufacturing in Australia? Wouldn't you want some sort of lobbying against government outsourcing IT / coding to India etc? Or would that just be programmers trying to keep things cosy for themselves ??!! From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com> [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Ken Schaefer Sent: Thursday, 5 September 2013 11:21 AM To: ozDotNet Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited I think you have a naïve view of what business lobbying is about then. Tax breaks or write-offs for "x", import restrictions on "y", government grants for "z" Free markets are best for consumers (and best for business as a whole). It just makes life hard for individual businesses, because it keeps them honest. Which is why so many business people are forever calling for government intervention to make their lives easier (maybe that's what "a decent playing field" is a euphemism for) Cheers Ken From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com> [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Paul Evrat Sent: Thursday, 5 September 2013 10:28 AM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited True, Clive and his policies in total are a bit over the top but he knows he's not going to be PM, it will be a long time before there is other than a Lib or Labor PM, but there are too many balls and chains around business and economic progress at the moment and having a slightly over the top pro-business minor party with some kick-arse influence would be unprecedented (I think). Plus the current leaders on both sides are too dull, boring and lame, it's time for some colour and go-get-it influence. Agree that total free market is not good for business, the country is way too small for that. But in terms of balancing business and welfare safety nets Australia has the best chance. Don't agree business are rent seekers, they just want a decent playing field then for government to get out of the way. That's what business lobbying is about. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com> [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Ken Schaefer Sent: Thursday, 5 September 2013 9:26 AM To: ozDotNet Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited There are multiple ways to cook an egg. Clive's policy platform isn't necessarily the best one. Pro "free market" (as opposed to "pro-business) is what's generally best for consumers (even though it's not good for an individual business), whereas business people tend to become "rent seekers" lobbying for favours for their industries. Adam Smith noted something similar ~300 years ago in the Wealth of Nations, and nothing's changed. Silvio Berlusconi is an example of a successful businessman who's "pro-business" attitude didn't really extend to making life better for the general population. Cheers Ken From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com> [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Paul Evrat Sent: Thursday, 5 September 2013 8:37 AM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited Any pro-business force in parliament can only be good for the country. If business isn't doing well we can't afford anything else .. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com> [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Tony Wright Sent: Thursday, 5 September 2013 7:52 AM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited Oh I thought the only people ridiculous enough to vote for him were Queenslanders. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com> [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Scott Barnes Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 10:02 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: [OT] NBN revisited Is anyone else just a little bit curious to see Clive Palmer in Parliament House or is that just me.. I mean the comedic value alone is worth it On Wednesday, September 4, 2013, wrote: Well said...I believe Julian Assange would get my vote..i see honesty in him...mmm..that could bring a change! Anthony Melbourne StuffUps...learn from others, share with others! http://www.meetup.com/Melbourne-Ideas-Incubator-Stuffups-Failed-Startups/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- NOTICE : The information contained in this electronic mail message is privileged and confidential, and is intended only for use of the addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender by reply transmission and delete the message without copying or disclosing it. (*13POrtC*) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com<javascript:_e(%7b%7d,%20'cvml',%20'ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com');> [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com<javascript:_e(%7b%7d,%20'cvml',%20'ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com');>] On Behalf Of Tony Wright Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 6:02 PM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited Wow, he didn't even know what the policies of his party were. I think I know them better than he does! What are the 6 points of the 6 point Stop The Boats plan "Er, the first one is stop the boats" What are the other 5 points? "Er we plan to stop the boats" No, the other 5 points? "Er we plan to stop the boats" He should have said, well, so it's a 6 point plan but all 6 points are to stop the boats. What a vacuous bunch of pollie we have. Are these people worth $5? That's how much our first preference vote is worth together for the upper and lower house. I don't think they're worth it. Mine isn't going to Liberal or Labor. I'm finding someone closer to what I believe in and voting for them first and then voting for the party I want in. Why reward such mediocrity? From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com> [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of anthonyatsmall...@mail.com<mailto:anthonyatsmall...@mail.com> Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 4:11 PM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited Full interview of Jaymes Diaz, Liberal Candidate for Greenway<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrQPXXHUilU> this is pretty funny and disturbing video! This guy is pretty useless..this politick has no idea about anything...its just a job he is going for...how do these people get into such roles... -- --- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.riagenic.com No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<http://www.avg.com> Version: 2013.0.3392 / Virus Database: 3222/6636 - Release Date: 09/03/13 No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<http://www.avg.com> Version: 2013.0.3392 / Virus Database: 3222/6636 - Release Date: 09/03/13 No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<http://www.avg.com> Version: 2013.0.3392 / Virus Database: 3222/6639 - Release Date: 09/04/13 No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<http://www.avg.com> Version: 2013.0.3392 / Virus Database: 3222/6639 - Release Date: 09/04/13
