Hi Nathen,
How long have you been using Outsystems? Are you using the platform internally or for your customers? Regards Adrian Halid From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Nathan Schultz Sent: Tuesday, 22 November 2016 9:49 AM To: ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> Subject: Re: [OT] node.js and express Ack.. meant OutSystems IS a heavy solution. On 22 November 2016 at 09:45, Nathan Schultz <milish...@gmail.com <mailto:milish...@gmail.com> > wrote: @Ken; except that thick clients also are easier to debug and maintain as well; in fact the whole life-cycle is shorter. However I agree that fundamental drivers are towards web-based applications. Accessibility is the key; we're seeing the Internet of Things (IoT) exploding in growth. A huge growth in cloud computing. People want to be able to access everything they need no matter where they are. And thick clients are simply not transportable. These days I use OutSystems to generate my line of business reactive web-applications quickly and easily (it's very reminiscent of old style RAD tools - with similar limitations). However it doesn't come cheap (I'm lucky in that my company pays for it), and isn't perfect. But never-the-less, we re-developed an old thick client application (which has continually grown to mammoth proportions over a decade), and re-developed it (including new features) as a reactive mobile-friendly web-application in under 8 months. I find it's ideal for data driven line-of-business applications; but it's not something I'd reach for, for complex process heavy operations where every millisecond counts (although you can call .Net assemblies natively, or consume REST web-services that you can build yourself to get around this). I still keep my eyes somewhat on traditional web-development (OutSystems is not a heavy solution). I've had a lot of enjoyable moments with Elm, but it's still immature and some simple things are still infuriatingly hard in it. However, it's got a good foundation, and I think in time it will turn out to be very good. On 22 November 2016 at 09:25, Greg Low (罗格雷格博士) <g...@greglow.com <mailto:g...@greglow.com> > wrote: What do you see as the key drivers Ken? I can guess as I spend my life in these environments but I’m left wondering if we could have solved them a much better way. We simply haven’t achieved productivity. And I’ll bet if someone is starting to build something new today, they can’t even work out what to use. How did we get to this? Regards, Greg Dr Greg Low 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | <tel:%2B61%20419201410> +61 419201410 mobile│ <tel:%2B61%203%208676%204913> +61 3 8676 4913 fax SQL Down Under | Web: <http://www.sqldownunder.com/> www.sqldownunder.com | <http://greglow.me/> http://greglow.me From: <mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com> ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto: <mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com> ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Ken Schaefer Sent: Tuesday, 22 November 2016 12:15 PM To: ozDotNet < <mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> Subject: RE: [OT] node.js and express Typical Devs – all they talk about is how much faster/quicker they can write an app in one tech vs. another. As if that’s the only thing that matters. :):) (note, smiley faces!) Development time/cost/effort is generally a small fraction of the cost of supporting an app, let alone the cost of supporting a large environment. Maybe thick-client deployment works well in small(er) environments. It doesn’t scale in larger ones. As David alluded too, there were many drivers to moving towards web-based applications Cheers Ken From: <mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com> ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [ <mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com> mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of DotNet Dude Sent: Tuesday, 22 November 2016 9:15 AM To: ozDotNet < <mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> Subject: Re: [OT] node.js and express Totally agree Greg. About 80% of what we are currently building could be done in 1/10 of the time using winforms or mvc. Some of our clients are even TELLING us how to build it using whatever technology they've recently heard of. One customer recently asked us to use Electron. Did they need cross platform? No. Why force javascript down my team's throat when it can be avoided altogether and we can have it done in a week with wpf or winforms?! Many years ago we just did a winforms app and deployed via clickonce. Worked well and no complaints in the Intranet environments. I've yet to see a case where not using winforms (or wpf) or webforms (or mvc) is worth it in Intranet situations. Internet facing apps is a whole different thing obviously. On Tuesday, 22 November 2016, Greg Low (罗格雷格博士) < <mailto:g...@greglow.com> g...@greglow.com> wrote: I’m simply amazed at what we’ve done to ourselves as an industry. I was on a project a while back. With 12 devs and 7 months’ work, the core business web app was created. The guys worked hard. At the end, they were still struggling to get it to look right on different browsers. But in the end, I looked at the outcome and knew in my heart that I could have created it as a winform app by myself in around a week. This is progress? We started building web apps because the IT people were fed up with trying to deploy Windows apps. It wasn’t because users were crying out for a lousy visual experience, and apps that throw away their work if they stop using them for the session timeout period. I think we “fixed” the wrong problem. Regards, Greg Dr Greg Low 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 <tel:%2B61%20419201410> mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913 <tel:%2B61%203%208676%204913> fax SQL Down Under | Web: <http://www.sqldownunder.com/> www.sqldownunder.com | <http://greglow.me/> http://greglow.me From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com <mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com> [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Price Sent: Monday, 21 November 2016 6:59 PM To: ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com <mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> > Subject: Re: [OT] node.js and express Goodness, you are not alone. I'm more surprised that you are surprised, that's all. Some links to confirm you are not alone (and some funny, cause it's true, reading) https://hackernoon.com/how-it-feels-to-learn-javascript-in-2016-d3a717dd577f#.cdvrepjwi https://medium.com/@wob/the-sad-state-of-web-development-1603a861d29f#.kqtp9oyq6 There was a hilarious one written by a Java developer where she all but dissolved in tears and screaming... but I can't find it right now. Funny because it was pretty spot on, not because a poor soul was suffering. If this shit was easy, everyone would be doing it. There's job security in the pain, somewhere. cheers Stephen p.s. All opinions and beliefs are my own. I'm not sure how they came to be, for that I can only blame those I've hung around, in real life and online. _____ From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com <mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com> <ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com <mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com> > on behalf of Greg Keogh <gfke...@gmail.com <mailto:gfke...@gmail.com> > Sent: Monday, 21 November 2016 2:48:54 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: [OT] node.js and express You're not alone Greg. It's like going back to spaghetti but everyone around me doesn't agree. Thanks heavens someone is sympathetic. I thought I was crazy, but I'm glad to know you are too! -- Greg
