Here again the link, also cross posting to networkedlabour list for those who are not on this one:
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_kM4x3RhnHdSWRGeXY3TGk1aTA/edit?usp=docslist_api&filetype=mspresentation > On 8 aug. 2016, at 07:14, Orsan <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Also to your earlier response Kevin, did you mean with a better argument > something like, of which I was thinking about too, in the context of > revolution-radical reform-gradual change context; a conscious and planned and > documented counter-vortex construction, as in Dyer-Witheford? > > I sketched something to discuss in Pavia last April, and wanted to go to > Montreal to put it in practice.. But in both failed to proceed because of > rarely missing the flights, something strange happening with the flight > times; which I guess happens often enough. > > Yet would love to open the discussion to broader participation, especially on > the design process of the form and content of such a counter-vortex. From > closed deep dives to public spaces.. To me building global value-unchains and > network of direct democratically governed transition-refuges, on top of an > people's Internet; while taking labour, land, money, and the data out of the > control of the market and the state. When you do this and at some point state > and market rulers use violence then armed resistance becomes legitimate and > then it should be democratically implemented, through public assemblies. > > Orsan > > > >> On 8 aug. 2016, at 00:22, Kevin Carson >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> I agree. I just object to necessarily dismissing all gradualism as >> "reformist." But even if reformism and radical gradualism are >> conceptually distinct, there's probably -- as you say -- a great deal >> of line-blurring in their practical application. And it's not at all >> clear to me when the cumulative effect of a series of reforms becomes >> structural and qualitative -- you put together a series of actions >> taken by the ruling class under pressure from below, in order to >> stabilize the system, and at some point the system becomes something >> else. >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 11:29 PM, Roberto Verzola <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> In my opinion "reformism" and gradualism are two entirely different >>>> things -- the difference being that the later envisons a transition to >>> >>> But a lot of misjudgments are made, and some who think themselves very >>> radical misjudge people who want fundamental change too, as people who just >>> want to protect the present system. >>> >>> Furthermore, even those who want fundamental change will disagree among >>> themselves up to what point change must happen. Are you just against high >>> interest rates (but low rates are ok)? Are you against the entire principle >>> of charging interest? Or maybe you are also against fractional reserve >>> banking? But others are against the whole idea of fiat money too. Or are >>> you for the abolition of money in general? Or perhaps against markets in >>> general? Are you against specific bad corporations only, or against the >>> corporate form of business in general, or against business in general? If >>> some are not against money in general but only about some aspects of it, >>> does that make them reformists now because because they want to retain >>> other aspects of the money system? Or the market system for that matter. >>> Someone's radical is somebody else's reformist. >>> >>> In such an incredibly complex situation, especially when activists continue >>> to educate themselves along and their positions may change over time, it is >>> not good to set onesself up as judge and brand people this or that, >>> especially on an open list, as if one had exclusive monopoly over truth. >>> >>> In fact, most on this list are right some of the time and wrong some of the >>> time. >>> >>> On a different note: I'm currently reading this (admittedly old--2004) book >>> THE GREAT ADVENTURE: Towards a Fully Human Theory of Evolution by David >>> Loye (ed.). It refers to "evolution theorist" Riane Eisler. It says Eisler >>> in her contributed article "brings to life how, underlying the full range >>> of human relationships from intimate to international are two basic social >>> structures: the domination model and the partnership model". Eisler "shows >>> how the tension between these two models has shaped history, and how the >>> outcome of this tension is key to fulfillment or extinction for our >>> species." >>> >>> Eisler might as well have written about the client/server vs the P2P >>> model... In my current work on renewable energy, I am also coming across >>> the same tension between the centralized power generation model and the >>> distributed generation model. A similar tension exists in agriculture and >>> many other areas, as Eisler has observed. Their efforts might yet provide >>> another illuminating context to the P2P movement. >>> >>> The book itself describes an ongoing effort to marry psychology with the >>> theory of evolution towards a new theory of *human* evolution that goes far >>> beyond the "survival of the fittest" cliche of neo-darwinists. >>> >>> Greetings to all, >>> >>> Roberto Verzola >>> Philippines >>> >>> >>> On Sat, 6 Aug 2016 21:33:19 -0500 >>> Kevin Carson <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> In my opinion "reformism" and gradualism are two entirely different >>>> things -- the difference being that the later envisons a transition to >>>> a system that is fundamentally different, but simply sees the >>>> transition as a medium- or long-term process, whereas the former wants >>>> to stabilize and ameliorate the existing system of power. >>>> >>>> On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 10:55 AM, Michel Bauwens >>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 5:23 PM, Örsan Şenalp <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> As for your reply, what is very striking that not the lack of clarity >>>>>> of your opinions on Fabians and relation to Fabianism, but rather a >>>>>> weak confirmation you have given only one thing find good in it; >>>>>> namely guild socialism; or cooperative solidarity economy vision. I >>>>>> would guess this means you believe in gradual change instead of >>>>>> full-force attack at the heart of the machine; which kills billions of >>>>>> people and destroy the planet; the main principle of the Fabians. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Dear Orsan, >>>>> >>>>> it seems we are re-doing here the 250 year old battle between revoluton >>>>> and >>>>> reformism, and that your critique of Pat, and sometimes of me, is that we >>>>> are reformists. >>>>> >>>>> Personally, I don't see myself as a reformism in the sense it was defined, >>>>> >>>>> but, I do consider this: >>>>> >>>>> * the record of revolution is abysmal, with at least 100 million death >>>>> when >>>>> the revolutionaries were in power (the soviet one, but the earlier french >>>>> was almost as dramatic); and an untold number during the ongoing defeats >>>>> of >>>>> those that did not succeed >>>>> >>>>> * the record of social democracy in its golden age was extraordinary, at >>>>> least for the western working class, but I would argue, if you look at >>>>> national liberation, that was also a fundamental advance, not to mention >>>>> civil, gender rights etc .. >>>>> >>>>> * but even the revolutionaries who were combatting reformism, were not >>>>> against reforms >>>>> >>>>> * now, there is a lot of evidence of social unrest, there were social and >>>>> political and electoral s shifts that brought progressives to power, but >>>>> is >>>>> there any evidence that global south workers for example are revolutionary >>>>> .. I would argue, they are not, even as they fight radically for social >>>>> and >>>>> labor improvements >>>>> >>>>> People like Pat Conaty , and myself, want post-capitalist structural >>>>> reforms, and a phase transition, but at the same time, we are not opposed >>>>> to >>>>> reforms and to any social advances that social movements can win >>>>> >>>>> we want full and real democratization, an end to extractive regimes and >>>>> practices >>>>> >>>>> yet, you continuously paint us as enemies it seems, and use a sliding >>>>> scale >>>>> that always ends up with the enemies of the people >>>>> >>>>> it always seems that your real enemy is not the 1%, but those of the 99% >>>>> who >>>>> do not share your views .. >>>>> >>>>> I see pat conaty, john restakis and others in the network for a >>>>> cooperative >>>>> commonwealth and synergia, as people with a lifelong record of fighting >>>>> for >>>>> the betterment of their fellow humans >>>>> >>>>> they want reforms, but they are not reformists, >>>>> >>>>> Michel >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: >>>>> http://commonstransition.org >>>>> >>>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net >>>>> >>>>> Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens >>>>> >>>>> #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/ >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> NetworkedLabour mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kevin Carson >>>> Senior Fellow, Karl Hess Scholar in Social Theory >>>> Center for a Stateless Society http://c4ss.org >>>> >>>> "You have no authority that we are bound to respect" -- John Perry Barlow >>>> "We are legion. We never forgive. We never forget. Expect us" -- Anonymous >>>> >>>> Homebrew Industrial Revolution: A Low-Overhead Manifesto >>>> http://homebrewindustrialrevolution.wordpress.com >>>> Desktop Regulatory State http://desktopregulatorystate.wordpress.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> P2P Foundation - Mailing list >>>> >>>> Blog - http://www.blog.p2pfoundation.net >>>> Wiki - http://www.p2pfoundation.net >>>> >>>> Show some love and help us maintain and update our knowledge commons by >>>> making a donation. Thank you for your support. >>>> https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/donation >>>> >>>> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Roberto Verzola <[email protected]> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> P2P Foundation - Mailing list >>> >>> Blog - http://www.blog.p2pfoundation.net >>> Wiki - http://www.p2pfoundation.net >>> >>> Show some love and help us maintain and update our knowledge commons by >>> making a donation. Thank you for your support. >>> https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/donation >>> >>> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation >> >> >> >> -- >> Kevin Carson >> Senior Fellow, Karl Hess Scholar in Social Theory >> Center for a Stateless Society http://c4ss.org >> >> "You have no authority that we are bound to respect" -- John Perry Barlow >> "We are legion. We never forgive. We never forget. Expect us" -- Anonymous >> >> Homebrew Industrial Revolution: A Low-Overhead Manifesto >> http://homebrewindustrialrevolution.wordpress.com >> Desktop Regulatory State http://desktopregulatorystate.wordpress.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> P2P Foundation - Mailing list >> >> Blog - http://www.blog.p2pfoundation.net >> Wiki - http://www.p2pfoundation.net >> >> Show some love and help us maintain and update our knowledge commons by >> making a donation. Thank you for your support. >> https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/donation >> >> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
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