On Nov 21, 2009, at 12:44 AM, Chris McCormick wrote:
Hi Hans!
Let me prefix this by saying I think you and everyone else are doing
great work
with pd-extended.
On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 12:19:45AM -0500, Hans-Christoph Steiner
wrote:
On Nov 21, 2009, at 12:03 AM, Chris McCormick wrote:
On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 03:02:14AM +0000, Chris McCormick wrote:
1. Pd is minimal whilst pd-extended is maximal. Hans has stated
on list
that he would like to include as many externals as possible in the
distribution. I think this is a bad architectural decision which
leads to
complexity and bugs. I would rather run something which has an
architecture I agree with.
Just like to throw in my two cents since I am mentioned by name ;)
I may
have said that years ago, but that is definitely no longer the case
and
hasn't been for years. We really should be working towards a
common, simple
library format so we don't need to include so much stuff in a
single package.
Ok! I am obviously behind the times. Sorry about that. I guess it's
still the
case that at this point in time it is included in a single package,
but very
nice to hear that you are moving towards something more modular. I
should note
that Pd itself is not very modular in terms of the way it's
distributed, it's
just that there is not a lot of stuff in it.
2. pd-extended has not yet earned my trust as a software project.
I have
been using Pd for a few years, and it has earned my trust. There
are many
things which Miller has not implemented which I wish he had, but
there are
far fewer things that he has implemented which I wish he hadn't.
If you do find problems please do let us know.
I will, thanks for the invitation. This is one of the great things
about
pd-extended, that the development is so public and open. I am
looking forward
to the day when pd-extended fits my needs and I can begin to trust
it when I
use it more.
3. Hans is the leader of the pd-extended project, and I disagree
with many
of his technical decisions. I don't trust him to make technical
decisions as
much as I trust Miller. This may be outweiged down the track by
evolutionary pressure, since pd-extended will be subjected to a
lot more
pressure than Pd will be, because Pd basically has a sole
maintainer. For
me this is the biggest thing going for pd-extended - it is
properly exposed
to the evolutionary pressures of the Free Software community.
Funny, I never wanted to be a leader of this, I'd much prefer it if
more
people were involved in the work and the decision making. And
thankfully,
I'm not the only one who works on it. Others have contributed a
lot as
well.
Of course, and you are doing a neccessary job and I think a lot of
people
appreciate it, especially people who just want to get something
working fast on
their platform, and need the functionality of some externals but
can't compile
them.
4. I often want to run Pd on constrained devices and in
constrained places.
Getting it to do so is hard enough without the bloat that pd-
extended
experiences. What if I want to apt-get install Pd onto my router/
gumstix/phone with an ARM based processor with 8MB of flash memory?
I often to that as well. You should see how many python libraries
are
available for embedded devices. Many many. Just because a library
is
sitting there on the disk doesn't mean you have to use it. But it
does meant
that you _can_ use it.
I guess the difference is that when disk space is constrained I have
the option
to install or not install something with Python, whilst I don't
really have
that option with pd-extended. If you do an `apt-cache search python-
` you will
see a ton of stuff that you can optionally install. I think the
Python VM and
language strike the right balance with what hey choose to be
'batteries
included' and what they leave out. Possibly pd-extended still needs
to find
that balance.
I think the commonly agreed-upon future direction for Pd-extened on
Debian-esque platforms is having all of the libs broken out into
separate packages. It is just a matter of getting the work done...
All that said, I like the forkiness of Pd and think its a strength.
I don't
think everyone should use Pd-extended, or whatever. Its kind of
ironic maybe
that this thread started with me talking about doing pd- vanilla
maintenance
:).
Yes, I agree. Choice is good. Also, that irony is not lost on me! I
would
really appreciate having someone dedicated to updating vanilla Pd in
Debian. I
must apologise for always contributing words rather that code or
action, which
is what you do for the benefit of us all.
IOhannes beat me to the punch, he just didn't mention it. :-)
.hc
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The arc of history bends towards justice. - Dr. Martin Luther
King, Jr.
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