Chiming in late here, still catching up after a week away... I don't think it is "plagiarism" (copying of ideas) so much as it is a common application of rules of composition. I don't believe I have ever seen either of the two alley shots Bob references in the second part of his note below. However, I am sure that someplace I have seen a shot of an alleyway that was mostly empty, but with one point of contrast: a walker, a child playing, a bicycle against the wall, a kitten in the patch of sun. Whenever I travel in places with narrow alleys (e.g., Stockholm, Singapore, Naples) I look for, wait for, that moment that allows me to apply the lesson of composition I learned looking at other photos like these: empty space is just empty space, no matter how interesting the architecture that surrounds it, unless there is an element of contrast to emphasize the emptiness of the space. There are probably a few hundred thousand variants of shots showing bicycles leaning against walls, but it doesn't mean that the next person who uses a bicycle against a wall is copying someone else; rather he is putting the same principles to use. As millions of photographers follow the same relatively limited rule set with a finite set of objects to photograph, a certain sameness may begin to appear. But I can appreciate the subtle differences in execution just as I can appreciate the differences between renditions of the same classical piece by three different orchestras.
As I mentioned once before, I saw an exhibit in our museum this spring - don't recall the names, but the project represented was searching out the exact spots where the Masters (e.g., Weston, St. Ansel, etc.) had placed their tripods to take some of their iconic images of Yosemite, etc. One interesting mosaic showed how three of the Greats had stood in basically the same place on the edge of a Yosemite Park parking lot, many years apart, had looked down the valley, and had taken very different shots of the same scene. Subtle differences in angles, in focal length of the lens used, but essentially the same scene. And each was a unique image because of those subtle differences. If you are seeing sameness, look deeper for the subtleties that discriminate among the superficially similar images. stan On Jun 13, 2008, at 5:07 PM, Bob W wrote: > On this subject of originality again, compare these 2 pictures. Both > taken in Fez by Magnum photographers (Abbas and Bruno Barbey), 7 years > apart: > > http://www.magnumphotos.com/Archive/C.aspx?VP=Mod_ViewBox.ViewBoxZoom_ > VPage&VBID=2K1HZO455SNUB&IT=ImageZoom01&PN=3&STM=T&DTTM=Image&SP=Searc > h&IID=2S5RYDWO3AKI&SAKL=T&SGBT=T&DT=Image > > http://tinyurl.com/64ytsg > > and > > http://www.magnumphotos.com/Archive/C.aspx?VP=Mod_ViewBox.ViewBoxZoom_ > VPage&VBID=2K1HZO455SZI9&IT=ImageZoom01&PN=11&STM=T&DTTM=Image&SP=Sear > ch&IID=2S5RYDIVPS83&SAKL=T&SGBT=T&DT=Image > > http://tinyurl.com/5kqova > > Now, if I don't see a donkey carrying a TV when I'm there I shall be > mightily pissed off! My expectations have been set. > > And how about these? Different photographers, different countries, 35 > years apart. > > HCB: > http://www.magnumphotos.com/Archive/C.aspx?VP=Mod_ViewBox.ViewBoxZoom_ > VPage&VBID=2K1HZO455498O&IT=ImageZoom01&PN=1&STM=T&DTTM=Image&SP=Searc > h&IID=2S5RYDIPAPAP&SAKL=T&SGBT=T&DT=Image > > http://tinyurl.com/69qtsz > > Barbey: > http://www.magnumphotos.com/Archive/C.aspx?VP=Mod_ViewBox.ViewBoxZoom_ > VPage&VBID=2K1HZO455O7X1&IT=ImageZoom01&PN=2&STM=T&DTTM=Image&SP=Searc > h&IID=2S5RYDIXWXWX&SAKL=T&SGBT=T&DT=Image > > http://tinyurl.com/5dg43b > > So now I have to do one of those. As an hommage, you understand. > > Bob > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On >> Behalf Of Bob W >> Sent: 13 June 2008 21:52 >> To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List' >> Subject: RE: Shooting plan >> >> I don't exactly have a shooting list, but I like to visit places > where >> pictures were taken that I really like. I like to try and understand >> what the photographer saw when he went there, and how easy or >> difficult it must have been to get the picture. For instance, the > view >> of the Ile de la Cite from Pont Neuf in Paris has been photographed >> 273 billion times, but somehow THE picture of it, for me, is >> Cartier-Bresson's >> > http://www.magnumphotos.com/Archive/C.aspx?VP=Mod_ViewBox.ViewBoxZoom_ >> > VPage&VBID=2K1HZO45X3IE9&IT=ImageZoom01&PN=3&STM=T&DTTM=Image&SP=Searc >> h&IID=2S5RYDIOUH0U&SAKL=T&SGBT=T&DT=Image >> >> http://tinyurl.com/5snu4q >> >> I've been there any number of times, but have never seen it like > that, >> and have never seen a picture of it as nice as that. But I've taken > a >> lot of pictures of my own that I like around that area because I've >> gone there as a result of that photograph. >> >> I don't want to make duplicates or copies of other people's pictures > - >> it would be impossible by the nature of Magnum photography anyway - >> but I do like to see what they saw, to try to understand the > processes >> that make them great photographers, and a by-product of that is that > I >> often get quite good pictures of my own. >> >>> >>> BTW, my use of the term "visual plagiarism" refers to rather > obvious >>> reworking of others' ideas rather than direct copying. >>> >> >> David Hurn and Bill Jay refer to The-It-Has-Been-Done-Before > Syndrome >> as Myth #6. Here are some excerpts: >> "photographers should actively look for ideas, attitudes, images, >> influences from the best photographers of all ages" >> >> "our advice [...] is best exressed by [...] 'the immature artist >> imitates; the mature artist steals'. So steal from the best" >> >> "use other people's ideas and attitudes as your ladder" >> >> "a good book is one that includes as many ideas as possible that are >> worth stealing" >> >>> Is genuine originality disappearing from the photographic >> mainstream? >>> >> >> By definition, no, because it's never been there. It's the > mainstream. >> Originality is not mainstream. If you want to see original > photography >> I recommend the magazine ei8ht, if you don't already know it. The >> companion website is www.foto8.com. >> >> This year's World Press Photo book discusses similar themes to those >> you've raised, and says "it was disappointing that so much of what > was >> submitted was familiar. One wonders why some photojournalists spend >> time and energy telling us what we already know in a style borrowed >> from another photographer. [...] One is left with the impression > that >> many entries were submitted because they looked like previous > winners' >> photos. Their sole purpose appeared to be to win prizes, a pointless >> journalistic exercise". >> >> So all in all, steal but don't copy. Be inspired, but don't imitate. >> >> Bob > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above > and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
