Jon, Robert, List, I began a draft response to your post, Jon, shortly after you wrote it, but things began to move so quickly on the list that my initial thoughts soon seemed to be superseded in the rapid fire exchanges following. So I am glad that you reposted it as it gives me another chance to respond (*if* I can complete it soon enough not to lose it again as things move on).
I certainly agree with Jon that your paper, Robert, is most interesting and that your podium diagram effectively represents the relations holding among the three categories. But I also agree with you, Jon, that 'involution' is not only Peirce's term, but indeed expresses the concept of the logical relations holding among the categories more accurately than does 'presupposition', really optimally. I would very slightly modify Jon's expression of these involutional relations: 3ns *involves *2ns *and* 1ns; 2ns *involves *1ns. JAS: Applying this to the "podium" diagram, 1=essence, 2=existence, and 3=reality. What about the inner portions? I suggest that 1/2=inherence, 2/3=persistence, and 1/2/3=governance. GR: I think that inherence, persistence and governance make good terminological sense in consideration of "the inner portions" of the podium based on CP 1.175. But as I see it the Aristotelian terminology of NEM 4:292-300, "form for 1ns, matter for 2ns, and entelechy for 3ns" is potentially misleading, especially if we forget that for Peirce 'form' is, as you commented, Jon, "whatever it is in itself, irrespective of anything else/" (1=essence), matter as "all that it is in reference to something else than itself" (2=existence), and entelechy as "that which brings things together" (3=reality)." In short, I see no reason to employ the Aristotelian terminology, loaded as it is with pre-Peircean notions especially of form. 'Matter' and 'entelechy' fare somewhat better, but still bring with them the Aristotelian associations. I think that it is possible and desirable to move beyond these in Peircean scholarship. Indeed, I found it helpful to my own understanding to substitute Peirce's terms for Aristotle's in distinguishing the inner relations. So: "the determination of "[the existent] by [essence]" (1/2=inherence), "the reaction of [existent] with [existent] " (2=existence), and "a determination of [an existent] to [an essential form]" (1/2/3=governance). Jon, your quoting Colapietro helped clarify the following, I think, truly important notion: that "reality, is *persistence*, is regularity (or, persistence *in/as* regularity?). VC: Existence is the mode of being of an individual substance considered as a continuity of *reactions*; insofar as it is *actually *reacting against other things, it exists. Persistence is the mode of being of such a substance seen as a *continuity *of reactions; insofar as it endures throughout a series of reactions, it persists. In other words, existence (because it is an instance of opposition) designates the aspect of secondness exhibited by any individual substance, while persistence (because it is a case of continuity) designates one of the ways in which it manifests thirdness. (Vincent Colapietro, *Peirce's Approach to the Self: A Semiotic Perspective on Human Subjectivity,* 83). In a word, 'persistence' is the existential form of continuity. JAS: Peirce describes two different classes of possible states of things that may be realized at a lapse of time--*prolonged **states*, which are *realized at any instant within a lapse; *and *gradual **states**, which are realized only at an entire lapse during which a change occurs from one **prolonged state** to another*, these two states being "logically incompossible" (see NEM 3:1074-1077, c.1905). Such diversity requires *real *qualities to be continuous (1/2/3), rather than isolated (1), and *real *things to persist (2/3), not merely exist (2). (*Boldface* and *underlining *as emphasis added by GR.) To repeat: In a nutshell, real *qualities* are *continuous* (not isolated); real *things* persist (not just exist). I expect to spend more time reflecting on the following quotations (which I've read numerous times over the years) and your succinct comment which separates them. CSP: Time with its continuity logically involves some other kind of continuity than its own. Time, as the universal form of change, cannot exist unless there is something to undergo change [2/3] and to undergo a change continuous in time there must be a continuity of changeable qualities [1/2/3]. (CP 6.132, EP 1:323, 1892) JAS: This is one specific sense in which all three categories are always present within our existing universe. CSP: I chiefly insist upon continuity, or Thirdness, and, in order to secure to thirdness its really commanding function, I find it indispensable fully [to] recognize that it is a third, and that Firstness, or chance, and Secondness, or Brute reaction, are other elements, without the independence of which Thirdness would not have anything upon which to operate. (CP 6.202, 1898) Best, Gary "Time is not a renewable resource." gnox *Gary Richmond* *Philosophy and Critical Thinking* *Communication Studies* *LaGuardia College of the City University of New York* On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 9:24 PM Jon Alan Schmidt <jonalanschm...@gmail.com> wrote: > List: > > I am repeating my post below from a few weeks ago with a new subject > heading, because it seems to have gotten lost in the flurry of responses to > the one on semeiotic that I sent a couple of hours later, which by now has > spawned several subsequent threads. If it is actually just a case where no > one had anything to say about it, then never mind. :-) > > Thanks, > > Jon S. > > On Sat, Apr 11, 2020 at 2:17 PM Jon Alan Schmidt <jonalanschm...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Robert, List: >> >> Thank you for sharing this very interesting paper. The "podium" diagram >> strikes me as an effective representation of the relations among Peirce's >> three categories, although his term was "involution" rather than >> "presupposition"--3ns *involves *2ns, which *involves *1ns. >> Coincidentally, I have been thinking about modes of being along similar >> lines recently, since "Metaphysics consists in the results of the absolute >> acceptance of logical principles not merely as regulatively valid, but as >> truths of being" (CP 1.487, c. 1896). >> >> CSP: Just as the logical verb with its signification reappears in >> metaphysics as a Quality, an ens having a Nature as its mode of being, and >> as a logical individual subject reappears in metaphysics as a Thing, an ens >> having Existence as its mode of being, so the logical reason, or premise, >> reappears in metaphysics as a Reason, an ens having a Reality, consisting >> in a ruling both of the outward and of the inward world, as its mode of >> being. The being of the quality lies wholly in itself, the being of the >> thing lies in opposition to other things, the being of the reason lies in >> its bringing qualities and things together. (CP 1.515, c. 1896) >> >> >> Applying this to the "podium" diagram, 1=essence, 2=existence, and >> 3=reality. What about the inner portions? I suggest that 1/2=inherence, >> 2/3=persistence, and 1/2/3=governance. >> >> In NEM 4:292-300 (1904), Peirce adapts Aristotelian terminology to >> discuss the categories--form for 1ns, matter for 2ns, and entelechy for >> 3ns. He describes form as "whatever it is in itself, irrespective of >> anything else" (1=essence), matter as "all that it is in reference to >> something else than itself" (2=existence), and entelechy as "that which >> brings things together" (3=reality). He goes on to distinguish three >> relations--"the determination of Matter by Form" (1/2=inherence), "the >> reaction of Matter with Matter" (2=existence), and "a determination of a >> Matter to a Form" (1/2/3=governance). The first and third quotes reflect >> two subtly different meanings of "determination" as explained on page 12 of >> your paper. >> >> In CP 1.175 (c. 1893), Peirce states, "The reality [3] of things [2] >> consists in their persistent forcing themselves upon our recognition. ... >> Reality, then, is persistence [2/3], is regularity." Vincent Colapietro >> helpfully spells this out further in his 1989 book, *Peirce's Approach >> to the Self: A Semiotic Perspective on Human Subjectivity*. >> >> VC: Existence is the mode of being of an individual substance considered >> as a continuity of *reactions*; insofar as it is *actually *reacting >> against other things, it exists. Persistence is the mode of being of such a >> substance seen as a *continuity *of reactions; insofar as it endures >> throughout a series of reactions, it persists. In other words, existence >> (because it is an instance of opposition) designates the aspect of >> secondness exhibited by any individual substance, while persistence >> (because it is a case of continuity) designates one of the ways in which it >> manifests thirdness. (p. 83) >> >> >> Based on my immersion in Peirce's writings about time lately, another >> candidate for 1/2/3 is diversity--the *realization *of different states >> of things at different determinations of time, which involves both >> persistent things (2/3) and changing qualities (1/2/3). Peirce describes >> two different classes of possible states of things that may be realized at >> a lapse of time--*prolonged *states, which are realized at any instant >> within a lapse; and *gradual *states, which are realized only at an >> entire lapse during which a change occurs from one prolonged state to >> another, these two states being "logically incompossible" (see NEM >> 3:1074-1077, c.1905). Such diversity requires *real *qualities to be >> continuous (1/2/3), rather than isolated (1), and *real *things to >> persist (2/3), not merely exist (2). >> >> CSP: Time with its continuity logically involves some other kind of >> continuity than its own. Time, as the universal form of change, cannot >> exist unless there is something to undergo change [2/3] and to undergo a >> change continuous in time there must be a continuity of changeable >> qualities [1/2/3]. (CP 6.132, EP 1:323, 1892) >> >> >> This is one specific sense in which all three categories are always >> present within our existing universe. >> >> CSP: I chiefly insist upon continuity, or Thirdness, and, in order to >> secure to thirdness its really commanding function, I find it indispensable >> fully [to] recognize that it is a third, and that Firstness, or chance, and >> Secondness, or Brute reaction, are other elements, without the independence >> of which Thirdness would not have anything upon which to operate. (CP >> 6.202, 1898) >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Jon Alan Schmidt - Olathe, Kansas, USA >> Professional Engineer, Amateur Philosopher, Lutheran Layman >> www.LinkedIn.com/in/JonAlanSchmidt - twitter.com/JonAlanSchmidt >> >>>
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