Cecile - yes, I think you could come to such a conclusion. That’s why I always use ‘representamen’ to refer to the mediative process. And I capitalize the term of Sign when I refer to the triad.
I think it’s important to recognize that the triad is functionally irreducible; That is, the Object-Representamen/Sign-Interpretant isn’t made up of three separately existing entities - which is why I don’t think one can come up with a graph of ‘an object’ or ‘a sign’ or ‘an interpretant’. >There are no such separate entities. As Peirce said [8.305] “I shall define a Sign and show its triadic form”. That seems to me, fairly straightforward - that the Sign has a triadic form!. So- yes, when referring to the triad, you can use the term of Sign! Then he breaks down this triadic form into parts, “A sign has two objects, its object as it is represented and its object in itself’ 8.333. My understanding of this - is that the Triadic Sign - functions within the relationships of ’two objects correlated to it. Then - Peirce continues: “It has also three interpretants” [ibid]..and these are also part of that whole functional triad of the Sign. And Peirce does refer just to that mediating relation, the representamen/sign which he refers to “as it is in itself” [8334. That is - just that single relation without the interaction with the object[s] and interpretant[s]. “A Sign, or Representmen, is a First which stands in such a genuine triadic relation to a Second, Called its Object, as to be capable of determining a Third, called its Interpretant…” EP 2:272. “A respresentamen, or sign, is anything which stands, in any respect, at once in a relation of correspondence to a correlate, called its object, and to another correlate, its interpretant” 1901 MS[R]1147”A sign is an object capable of determining in a mind a cognition of an object, called the object of the sign. A sign is a species under the genus representamen. A representamen is an object A, in such a triadic relation to an objet B, for an objet C’…1903 MS[R]792:2 “Every sign is in a triad relation to an object and to an interpretant” 1904 MS[R]L107 My point again, is that the mediating relation [called the sign, the representamen] doesn’t exist per se on its own but within a triadic function of Object-sign/representamen- Interpretant. We can analytically explore the categorical nature of this mediative relation [ as a Qualisign, Sinsign, Legisign] but again - it doesn’t exist on its own but only within the full triad, which can also be considered as a Sign….because it functions only within relationships! Edwina > On Jan 5, 2024, at 2:23 PM, Cécile Cosculluela > <cecile.coscullu...@univ-pau.fr> wrote: > > Jon, Edwina, List, > > Thank you for your time and interesting answers. Would it be appropriate to > consider that the term 'sign' may actually have two different meanings, > referring either to the representamen, or to the triadic relation of the > representamen to the object for the interpretant? > > Best regards, > > Cécile > > Cécile Cosculluela > MC anglais UPPA ∗ SSH ∗ LEA > Maître de Conférences en Etudes Anglophones > Associate Professor of English as a Second Language > Semiotics • Linguistics • Grammar • Translation > <LogoUPPA.jpg> > > De: "Jon Alan Schmidt" <jonalanschm...@gmail.com> > À: "Peirce-L" <peirce-l@list.iupui.edu> > Envoyé: Vendredi 5 Janvier 2024 19:09:55 > Objet: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Graphical Representations of the Sign by Peirce > > Cécile, List: > > CC: And the sign is a triadic relation. ... Nevertheless, since the sign is a > triadic relation, it is acceptable to represent the sign with the symbol "Y" > (preferably with three branches equally spaced). > > No, again, the sign is not a triadic relation--it is the first (simplest) > correlate of the triadic relation of representing or (more generally) > mediating, whose other two correlates are the sign's object and interpretant. > As Winfred Noeth correctly summarizes in a 2011 paper > (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/254965612_From_Representation_to_Thirdness_and_Representamen_to_Medium_Evolution_of_Peircean_Key_Terms_and_Topics), > "Peirce did consider the sign to be a triadic relation, but only in 1868. > However, from 1873 onwards, sign, representamen, or representation were > synonymously used as the names referring to the first correlate of the > triadic relation of semiosis" (p. 455). > > This relation can be represented in Existential Graphs by placing the name > "representing" or "mediating" where CP 1.347 shows an individual lowercase > letter, with three lines of identity attached to it--one with the name "sign" > at the other end, one with the name "object" at the other end, and one with > the name "interpretant" at the other end. Equal spacing of the branches is > not essential, there just needs to be some convention for where the names of > the first/second/third correlates are shown around the perimeter of the name > of the relation itself. Hence, these two examples are equivalent. > > <image.png> > > Regards, > > Jon Alan Schmidt - Olathe, Kansas, USA > Structural Engineer, Synechist Philosopher, Lutheran Christian > www.LinkedIn.com/in/JonAlanSchmidt > <http://www.linkedin.com/in/JonAlanSchmidt> / twitter.com/JonAlanSchmidt > <http://twitter.com/JonAlanSchmidt> > > On Fri, Jan 5, 2024 at 11:38 AM Cécile Cosculluela > <cecile.coscullu...@univ-pau.fr <mailto:cecile.coscullu...@univ-pau.fr>> > wrote: >> Edwina, Jon, John, & fellow Listers, >> >> Thank you for your much appreciated clarifications. It is clear that the >> oft-shown graph of the sign as a triangle is not appropriate because it >> represents three dyadic relations, not one triadic one. And the sign is a >> triadic relation. Peirce used the "Y" symbol" to represent the triad (in CP >> 1.346 for instance), but he did not explicitly use the "Y" symbol" to >> represent the sign. (That's what I mean by the phrase "a diagram of the >> sign". I don't mean a diagram of Peirce's method of defining a sign, or >> examples of actual instances of marks, tokens, and types. I simply mean a >> representation / symbol of the triadic concept of sign.) There are actually >> no graphical representations of the sign in Peirce's texts. Nevertheless, >> since the sign is a triadic relation, it is acceptable to represent the sign >> with the symbol "Y" (preferably with three branches equally spaced). Would >> you agree that this sums up the general consensus among Peircean scholars on >> the question of the graphical representation of the sign by Peirce? >> >> Thanks for continuing the semiosis of enquiry ... >> >> Warm regards, >> >> Cécile >> >> Cécile Cosculluela >> MC anglais UPPA ∗ SSH ∗ LEA >> Maître de Conférences en Etudes Anglophones >> Associate Professor of English as a Second Language >> Semiotics • Linguistics • Grammar • Translation >> <LogoUPPA.jpg> > > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > ARISBE: THE PEIRCE GATEWAY is now at > https://cspeirce.com and, just as well, at > https://www.cspeirce.com . It'll take a while to repair / update all the > links! > ► PEIRCE-L subscribers: Click on "Reply List" or "Reply All" to REPLY ON > PEIRCE-L to this message. PEIRCE-L posts should go to peirce-L@list.iupui.edu > . > ► To UNSUBSCRIBE, send a message NOT to PEIRCE-L but to l...@list.iupui.edu > with UNSUBSCRIBE PEIRCE-L in the SUBJECT LINE of the message and nothing in > the body. 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