List,
In thinking further on the question of Peirce and Plato and doing some
research, I came across this goldmine of a thesis:
O’Hara, D. L. (2005). /The Slow Percolation of Forms: Charles Peirce’s
Writings on Plato/ [Ph.D., Pennsylvania State University]. 281 pp.
https://etda.libraries.psu.edu/files/final_submissions/1459
I absolutely recommend it, and wonder why I had not previously stumbled
upon it.
It cites much previously unpublished material from Peirce and asserts
much closer ties of Peirce to Plato than most scholars. Another
interesting citation is for an unpublished 1999 paper by Ketner on
"Peirce and Plato", which I have been unable to find. If anyone on this
list knows where to find a copy, I would appreciate the link.
Thanks!
Best, Mike
On 11/8/2024 5:20 PM, Jerry LR Chandler wrote:
Jeff, Edwinia, Mike:
I concur with Mike.
The restraint that seems essential is to focus on Platonic texts with
consequences for both Aristotelian logic and CSP texts.
This is a long stretch in terms of relevance of the history of
terminologies, grammars and taxonomies.
My superficial readings of Plato decades ago inspired me to go
elsewhere! Perhaps my purposes and goals have changed a good bit in
recent years.
Cheers
Jerry
On Nov 8, 2024, at 9:20 AM, Mike Bergman <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Jeff,
I really like the way you framed this. I, for one, would enjoy
reading such a discussion on this list. (Edwina?) As someone quite
unfamiliar with Plato, I would especially like to see contrasts and
consistencies drawn in Plato's and Peirce's methods of inquiry. I
hold fallibility and the knowability of truth to be cornerstones in
Peirce's architectonic.
Best, Mike
On 11/8/2024 3:17 AM, Jeffrey Brian Downard wrote:
Edwina, List,
You say: "In Plato and others, I understand that knowledge is/a
priori/ and the existential world is a weak and possibly corrupt
version of this ‘wholeness’. Indeed, this assumption is a basic
format of most monotheistic religions!"
Not being a Plato scholar, I find the dialogues great fun to
read--especially in the company of others--such as students. At
times, it can be challenging to sort out the views of the various
interlocutors. My general approach is to interpret the texts as
exercises--written by Plato--for the students at the Academy.
Considered in this light, then one can think of the works as an
opportunity to rehearse various lines of inquiry in the company of
others who were at the Academy, such as Eudoxus, Thaeatetus and
Aristotle.
I think of Plato as a philosopher who is engaging in active inquiry.
Instead of treating his "Platonism" as a collection of conclusions
he has adopted, I interpret most of the arguments as lines of
inquiry being explored. It is clear he thinks some lines are more
promising than others. Having said that, the various interlocuters
(Socrates included) often find themselves retracing their
steps--trying to figure out where they might have gone wrong.
I read Peirce in a similar way. He is often considering a range of
hypotheses, and he is exploring various ways competing hypotheses
might be put to the test. Through this process, theories of logic,
metaphysics, etc. do take shape, but Peirce considers many of the
conclusions drawn as provisional in character. One could, as he does
in some places, stop and assign varying degrees of confidence to the
propositions that make up a given theory. If one took the time to do
that, I think we would find many of the propositions attributed to
Peirce are held with degrees of confidence that range from low to
moderate. He holds such views because he doesn't yet see better
answers to the questions at hand. There are numerous shortcomings in
the explanations offered, but he is hoping such views might lead to
better hypotheses at some point in the future.
So, if you want to take up some of Plato's lines of inquiry, let me
know. Doing so would require that we look at the texts and try to
sort out the arguments--bit by bit. An attempt to summarize Plato's
views in a sentence or two will, I tend to think, miss the living
and growing character of the methods and processes of inquiry he is
modeling in the dialogues.
Yours,
Jeff
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:*
[email protected]<[email protected]>on
behalf of Edwina Taborsky<[email protected]>
*Sent:* Thursday, November 7, 2024 3:20 PM
*To:* Peirce-L<[email protected]>
*Cc:* edwina Taborsky<[email protected]>
*Subject:* [PEIRCE-L] Plato and Peirce
Jeff, list
I repeat some of my points from a previous post - which is a focus
on what I see as a fundamental difference between Plato and Peirce -
which is - the direction, so to speak, of knowledge. In Plato and
others, I understand that knowledge is a priori and the existential
world is a weak and possibly corrupt version of this ‘wholeness’.
Indeed, this assumption is a basic format of most monotheistic
religions!
Whereas, the sense I get from Peirce is a rejection of this concept
- with its an essential split between Mind and Matter - and an
outline that almost rejects full knowledge and instead, sets up an
infrastructure where knowledge, which includes the actual
existential forms that matter can be, actually evolves and
increases and yes - even changes!
This is a huge difference.
The a priori Platonic universals [Forms] posits knowledge as a
priori timeless nature. This sets up a mindset focused around the
concept of ‘purity’ and ’the ideal’. But the Peircean outline, to
me, rejects this. My understanding of Peircean universals is that
they, as habits of Formation, are generated within and by
existential matter as it evolves and interacts with other existents.
[objective-idealism].
His whole outline of the emergence the universe [ 1.412] and
6.214—is as an evolutionary cosmology [6.102] “where all
the regularities of nature and of mind are regarded as products
of. Growth and to a Schelling-fashiooned idealism which holds matter
to be mere specialized and partially deadened mind” 6.102….
And “ideas tend to spread continuously and to affect certain others
which stand to them in a peculiar relation of affectibility. In this
spreading they lose intensity and especially the power of affecting
others, but gain generality and become welded with other ideas’.
6.104. In this reference, it seems to me that generals
actually evolve within the universe.
And since the three categories are basic modes within the universe -
then, the universe has its own capacity to self-organize and
generate these universals - as outlined in 1.412, where habits
emerge and develop. And ’the unsettled is the primal state”. 6.348 -
which would be, I suggest, the opposite of Platonism.
That is - Peirce sets up a semiosic infrastructure, which, in my
view, enables such an evolutionary and almost unknowable universe.
1] He defines the three categorical modes of being as basic to
the universe. These modes include teh capacity to change without
intention [Firstness]; the reality of existential individuality [
Secondness] and the reality of commonality among these
individualities [ Thirdness].
2] And Peirce’s outline of the Complete Sign as an irreducible triad
as the basic method of such adaptive evolution sets up a method for
the informational transformation of data from one Sign to another
Sign, and, with the categories, the transformation of their input
data into generals. ]See outline in 6.142]…”the affection of one
idea by another”… “It is that the affected idea is attached as a
logical predicate to the affecting idea as a subject”. And “No sign
can function as such except as far as it is interpreted in another
sign’ {8.225f]….the essence of the relation is in the conditional
futurity”.
3] I note again Peirce’s insistence that this semiotic triad is an
active, transformative function -
1908 MS[R]277
By a Sign is meant any Ens which is determined by a single Object or
set of Objects called its Originals, all other than the Sign itself,
and in its turn is capable of determining in a MInd something called
its Interpretant, and that in such a way that the Mind is thereby
mediately determined to some mode of conformity to the Original or
Set of Originals. This is particularly intended to define [very
imperfectly as yet] a_ Complete Sign”. [my emphasis]. And “signs
…are triadic” 6.344.._
3] The concept of the Dicisign -, ]See outline in 6.142]…”the
affection of one idea by another”… “It is that the affected idea is
attached as a logical predicate to the affecting idea as a subject”. ..
That is - Dicisgns, are not merely descriptive [ mental] of an
object but are indexically connected to that object. I stress this
fact - that the dicisign is materially, physically, connected…and is
basic to the Peircean infrastructure.
If you add to this format, the categories, you produce a system
where existential information and knowledge can be both generated,
increased - and lost. {See Robert Marty’s The Lattice of Five Paths]/
As Peirce outlines in his description of a semosic interaction
8.314]…”The Dynamic Object is the identity of the actual or Real
meteorological conditions at the moment” - ie - the DO is not an
external object but THIS external object with which I am interacting
in THIS semiosic function. This thus moves the information of the DO
into a semiosic transformation.
As such, by continuous induction, “a habit becomes established [
6.145]. ….”Thus, by induction, a number of sensations followed by
one reason become united under one general idea followed by he
same reaction”…6.146. This sets up a habit or general…ie..one that
is generated within existential matter by the ‘Mind’ that is
operative within matter as Thirdness.
—————
My point is - that this system is the complete opposite of the
Platonic system - and - I’d say that the Platonic system with its
concept of the ‘ideal ‘ [whether a priori or in the future] is
grounded in much of the thought processes of the world [ certainly
in monotheism!] - and the Peircean system is… very different.
Edwina
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