Thanks for the kind response, Jim. I'd like to see common ownership of the means of production/consumption under the democratic control of the producers. Also on my agenda is production for use and need, the abolition of the wages-system and by extension the commodity. I don't think that this can be accomplished by having others act for the proles. They have to make their revolution themselves, although some will be conscious of this before others in their ranks.
If some want to call my position anarchist, it's ok by me. I think that the degree which any such revolutionary society would be 'centralized' or 'decentralized' would vary depending on the needs of the time and circumstances under which the society gave birth to socialism. I call it communism and I call it socialism. For the works! Mike B) P.S. I agree that the Wobblies are and have been a good start on the project of moving toward class conscious social revolution www.iww.org/ After all, the class struggle over the social product of labour and the length of the working day is political. --- "Devine, James" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Ken's response to this was good. I generally [*] > agree with what both he and Mike say here. But I > think it's good to avoid mushing > socialism-from-below (what I favor) up with > anarchism, so that basic principles can be discussed > -- as long as it doesn't become a sectarian pissing > match. > > [*] I always throw in this weasel word because I > might have misread what they say. > > ------------------------ > Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] & > http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Mike Ballard > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 1:12 AM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: Re: [PEN-L] Green > > > > > > --- "Devine, James" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > the one thing that all anarchists seem to agree > with > > > is that centralized government (the state) > should be > > > abolished -- as soon as possible. > > > > The State is the governmental expression of class > > rule. > > I've never met anyone--anarchists included--who > argued > > that that State could be abolished by decree. All > > socialists worth their salt (and most anarchists > worth > > their salt are socialists e.g. Chomsky) realize > that > > the State cannot be replaced with self-government > > until classes have ceased to exist. Classes > cannot > > die out until the social revolution is made and > that > > can't be done without its being an act of the > class > > workers themselves. > > > > > > Wobbly greetings, > > Mike B) > > > > > > But without a > > > centralized govt, how do people deal with issues > > > that affect us all, e.g., global warming? how do > we > > > prevent the neighboring anarchist collective > from > > > building nukes? > > > > > > I prefer Marx, whose vision of "the withering > away > > > of the state" (as I understand it) refers to the > > > _subodination_ of the state to the people, so > that > > > the _distinction_ between the state and society > > > withers away. > > > > > > That's a long-term goal, one that can't be > achieved > > > if one abolishes the state as soon as possible. > > > Abolition of the state NOW simply unleashes the > > > forces of Hobbesian havoc (anarchy in the worst > > > sense of the word) that are present in > > > actually-existing capitalist society. Instead, > the > > > state needs to be controlled. > > > > > > Some anarchists would say that delaying the > > > withering away was opportunist or something, > > > allowing a new class of state managers to arise. > But > > > abolishing the state right away allows rule by > those > > > with the most AK-47s. > > > > > > of course, it ain't bloody likely that the state > > > will be abolished soon -- unless the system > melts > > > down. I doubt that an environmental crisis > would > > > produce a very attractive anarchy. > > > > > > The IWW (OBU) was great, as a first step in the > > > development of a working-class movement. > Politics > > > are needed too. > > > > > > Jim > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Yoshie Furuhashi > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > Sent: Tue 8/12/2003 7:31 AM > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Cc: > > > Subject: Re: [PEN-L] Green > > > > > > > > > > > > >is there a color which represents > democracy? I'd > > > prefer democracy to > > > >anarchism (which precludes democracy). > > > >Jim > > > > > > Anarchy, to me, means democracy, i.e., > collective > > > self-government, > > > the very ideal to which Lenin spoke in > _The State > > > and Revolution." > > > Not all those who call themselves > anarchists agree > > > with me on this > > > interpretation, though. :-> > > > > > > I also like the idea of One Big Union. > "Would you > > > have freedom from > > > wage slavery? Then come join the Grand > Industrial > > > Band! Would you > > > from mis'ry and hunger be free? Come on, > do your > > > share, lend a > > > hand!" Listen to Utah Phillips sing the > Joe Hill > > > song "There Is a > > > Power in a Union" at > > > > > > > > > <http://video.pbs.org:8080/ramgen/joehill/UPThereIsPowerInAUni > on.rm?altplay=UPThereIsPowerInAUnion.rm>. > > > > I like the Black Cat log of the Industrial > Workers > > of the World, too > > (I have a T-shirt with the logo on it), > except that > > cats rarely go > > for collective actions. :-0 > > -- > > Yoshie > > > > * Bring Them Home Now! > > <http://www.bringthemhomenow.org/> > > * Calendars of Events in Columbus: > > > <http://www.osu.edu/students/sif/calendar.html>, > > <http://www.freepress.org/calendar.php>, & > > <http://www.cpanews.org/> > > * Student International Forum: > > <http://www.osu.edu/students/sif/> > > * Committee for Justice in Palestine: > > <http://www.osudivest.org/> > > * Al-Awda-Ohio: > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Al-Awda-Ohio> > > * Solidarity: <http://solidarity.igc.org/> > > > > > > > > > ===== > ***************************************************************** > Cognitive dissonance is the inner conflict produced > when long-standing beliefs are contradicted by new > evidence. > > http://profiles.yahoo.com/swillsqueal > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! 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