you write: >I don't think that this can be accomplished by having others act for the proles.<
this is the basic principle of the "socialism from below" tendency on the left. It goes against the Marxist-Leninist tendency and the social-democratic tendency, in which "condescending saviors" are relied upon. I don't think it's useful to use the word "anarchist" to refer to anyone except those leftists who (1) believe that the abolition of the state is of the highest priority -- so that all good things can happen -- and/or (2) believe that practice without theory -- e.g., smashing Starbucks windows -- is a way of getting progress for humanity. So I wouldn't call you an anarchist. ------------------------ Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] & http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike Ballard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 3:08 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [PEN-L] Green > > > Thanks for the kind response, Jim. > > I'd like to see common ownership of the means of > production/consumption under the democratic control of > the producers. Also on my agenda is production for > use and need, the abolition of the wages-system and by > extension the commodity. I don't think that this can > be accomplished by having others act for the proles. > They have to make their revolution themselves, > although some will be conscious of this before others > in their ranks. > > If some want to call my position anarchist, it's ok by > me. I think that the degree which any such > revolutionary society would be 'centralized' or > 'decentralized' would vary depending on the needs of > the time and circumstances under which the society > gave birth to socialism. I call it communism and I > call it socialism. > > For the works! > > Mike B) > > P.S. > > I agree that the Wobblies are and have been a good > start on the project of moving toward class conscious > social revolution www.iww.org/ > > After all, the class struggle over the social product > of labour and the length of the working day is > political. > > > --- "Devine, James" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Ken's response to this was good. I generally [*] > > agree with what both he and Mike say here. But I > > think it's good to avoid mushing > > socialism-from-below (what I favor) up with > > anarchism, so that basic principles can be discussed > > -- as long as it doesn't become a sectarian pissing > > match. > > > > [*] I always throw in this weasel word because I > > might have misread what they say. > > > > ------------------------ > > Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] & > > http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Mike Ballard > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 1:12 AM > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Subject: Re: [PEN-L] Green > > > > > > > > > --- "Devine, James" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > the one thing that all anarchists seem to agree > > with > > > > is that centralized government (the state) > > should be > > > > abolished -- as soon as possible. > > > > > > The State is the governmental expression of class > > > rule. > > > I've never met anyone--anarchists included--who > > argued > > > that that State could be abolished by decree. All > > > socialists worth their salt (and most anarchists > > worth > > > their salt are socialists e.g. Chomsky) realize > > that > > > the State cannot be replaced with self-government > > > until classes have ceased to exist. Classes > > cannot > > > die out until the social revolution is made and > > that > > > can't be done without its being an act of the > > class > > > workers themselves. > > > > > > > > > Wobbly greetings, > > > Mike B) > > > > > > > > > But without a > > > > centralized govt, how do people deal with issues > > > > that affect us all, e.g., global warming? how do > > we > > > > prevent the neighboring anarchist collective > > from > > > > building nukes? > > > > > > > > I prefer Marx, whose vision of "the withering > > away > > > > of the state" (as I understand it) refers to the > > > > _subodination_ of the state to the people, so > > that > > > > the _distinction_ between the state and society > > > > withers away. > > > > > > > > That's a long-term goal, one that can't be > > achieved > > > > if one abolishes the state as soon as possible. > > > > Abolition of the state NOW simply unleashes the > > > > forces of Hobbesian havoc (anarchy in the worst > > > > sense of the word) that are present in > > > > actually-existing capitalist society. Instead, > > the > > > > state needs to be controlled. > > > > > > > > Some anarchists would say that delaying the > > > > withering away was opportunist or something, > > > > allowing a new class of state managers to arise. > > But > > > > abolishing the state right away allows rule by > > those > > > > with the most AK-47s. > > > > > > > > of course, it ain't bloody likely that the state > > > > will be abolished soon -- unless the system > > melts > > > > down. I doubt that an environmental crisis > > would > > > > produce a very attractive anarchy. > > > > > > > > The IWW (OBU) was great, as a first step in the > > > > development of a working-class movement. > > Politics > > > > are needed too. > > > > > > > > Jim > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Yoshie Furuhashi > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > Sent: Tue 8/12/2003 7:31 AM > > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Cc: > > > > Subject: Re: [PEN-L] Green > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >is there a color which represents > > democracy? I'd > > > > prefer democracy to > > > > >anarchism (which precludes democracy). > > > > >Jim > > > > > > > > Anarchy, to me, means democracy, i.e., > > collective > > > > self-government, > > > > the very ideal to which Lenin spoke in > > _The State > > > > and Revolution." > > > > Not all those who call themselves > > anarchists agree > > > > with me on this > > > > interpretation, though. :-> > > > > > > > > I also like the idea of One Big Union. > > "Would you > > > > have freedom from > > > > wage slavery? Then come join the Grand > > Industrial > > > > Band! Would you > > > > from mis'ry and hunger be free? Come on, > > do your > > > > share, lend a > > > > hand!" Listen to Utah Phillips sing the > > Joe Hill > > > > song "There Is a > > > > Power in a Union" at > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <http://video.pbs.org:8080/ramgen/joehill/UPThereIsPowerInAUni > > on.rm?altplay=UPThereIsPowerInAUnion.rm>. > > > > > > I like the Black Cat log of the Industrial > > Workers > > > of the World, too > > > (I have a T-shirt with the logo on it), > > except that > > > cats rarely go > > > for collective actions. :-0 > > > -- > > > Yoshie > > > > > > * Bring Them Home Now! > > > <http://www.bringthemhomenow.org/> > > > * Calendars of Events in Columbus: > > > > > <http://www.osu.edu/students/sif/calendar.html>, > > > <http://www.freepress.org/calendar.php>, & > > > <http://www.cpanews.org/> > > > * Student International Forum: > > > <http://www.osu.edu/students/sif/> > > > * Committee for Justice in Palestine: > > > <http://www.osudivest.org/> > > > * Al-Awda-Ohio: > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Al-Awda-Ohio> > > > * Solidarity: <http://solidarity.igc.org/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > ***************************************************************** > > Cognitive dissonance is the inner conflict produced > > when long-standing beliefs are contradicted by new > > evidence. > > > > http://profiles.yahoo.com/swillsqueal > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site > > design software > > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > > ===== > ***************************************************************** > Cognitive dissonance is the inner conflict produced when > long-standing beliefs are contradicted by new evidence. > > http://profiles.yahoo.com/swillsqueal > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com >
