Dear James and all, The "this" I refer to in the sentence, which James quoted below, is communism. I am part of that "socialism from below" tendency, as I think most class conscious workers were in the 19th Century, even many of them who labled themselves 'anarchists'. I think a case can be made that Marx was honestly of this opinion himself. His active participation in the First International demonstrates this.
As for the social democrats, they gave up on the abolition of the wage system a long time ago. As far as I'm concerned, socialism and the wage system are mutually exclusive. On the other hand, I do think that the workers could potentially rise to a position of such power within a capitalist/wage system as to be able to lop off sections of their social product and redirect these sections toward serving their own needs--including raises in wages and shortening the working day. I also think that workers could come to dominate other classses within a State capitalist system and politically impose a transition toward ending wage-slavery and with it, commodity production/consumption. Let free-time ring, Mike B) --- "Devine, James" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > you write: >I don't think that this can be > accomplished by having others act for the proles.< > > this is the basic principle of the "socialism from > below" tendency on the left. It goes against the > Marxist-Leninist tendency and the social-democratic > tendency, in which "condescending saviors" are > relied upon. > > I don't think it's useful to use the word > "anarchist" to refer to anyone except those leftists > who (1) believe that the abolition of the state is > of the highest priority -- so that all good things > can happen -- and/or (2) believe that practice > without theory -- e.g., smashing Starbucks windows > -- is a way of getting progress for humanity. So I > wouldn't call you an anarchist. > > ------------------------ > Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] & > http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Mike Ballard > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 3:08 AM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: Re: [PEN-L] Green > > > > > > Thanks for the kind response, Jim. > > > > I'd like to see common ownership of the means of > > production/consumption under the democratic > control of > > the producers. Also on my agenda is production > for > > use and need, the abolition of the wages-system > and by > > extension the commodity. I don't think that this > can > > be accomplished by having others act for the > proles. > > They have to make their revolution themselves, > > although some will be conscious of this before > others > > in their ranks. > > > > If some want to call my position anarchist, it's > ok by > > me. I think that the degree which any such > > revolutionary society would be 'centralized' or > > 'decentralized' would vary depending on the needs > of > > the time and circumstances under which the society > > gave birth to socialism. I call it communism and > I > > call it socialism. > > > > For the works! > > > > Mike B) > > > > P.S. > > > > I agree that the Wobblies are and have been a good > > start on the project of moving toward class > conscious > > social revolution www.iww.org/ > > > > After all, the class struggle over the social > product > > of labour and the length of the working day is > > political. > > > > > > --- "Devine, James" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Ken's response to this was good. I generally [*] > > > agree with what both he and Mike say here. But > I > > > think it's good to avoid mushing > > > socialism-from-below (what I favor) up with > > > anarchism, so that basic principles can be > discussed > > > -- as long as it doesn't become a sectarian > pissing > > > match. > > > > > > [*] I always throw in this weasel word because I > > > might have misread what they say. > > > > > > ------------------------ > > > Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] & > > > http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Mike Ballard > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 1:12 AM > > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Subject: Re: [PEN-L] Green > > > > > > > > > > > > --- "Devine, James" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > the one thing that all anarchists seem to > agree > > > with > > > > > is that centralized government (the state) > > > should be > > > > > abolished -- as soon as possible. > > > > > > > > The State is the governmental expression of > class > > > > rule. > > > > I've never met anyone--anarchists > included--who > > > argued > > > > that that State could be abolished by decree. > All > > > > socialists worth their salt (and most > anarchists > > > worth > > > > their salt are socialists e.g. Chomsky) > realize > > > that > > > > the State cannot be replaced with > self-government > > > > until classes have ceased to exist. Classes > > > cannot > > > > die out until the social revolution is made > and > > > that > > > > can't be done without its being an act of the > > > class > > > > workers themselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > Wobbly greetings, > > > > Mike B) > > > > > > > > > > > > But without a > > > > > centralized govt, how do people deal with > issues > > > > > that affect us all, e.g., global warming? > how do > > > we > > > > > prevent the neighboring anarchist collective > > > from > > > > > building nukes? > > > > > > > > > > I prefer Marx, whose vision of "the > withering > > > away > > > > > of the state" (as I understand it) refers to > the > > > > > _subodination_ of the state to the people, > so > > > that > > > > > the _distinction_ between the state and > society > > > > > withers away. > > > > > > > > > > That's a long-term goal, one that can't be > > > achieved > > > > > if one abolishes the state as soon as > possible. > > > > > Abolition of the state NOW simply unleashes > the > > > > > forces of Hobbesian havoc (anarchy in the > worst > > > > > sense of the word) that are present in > > > > > actually-existing capitalist society. > Instead, > > > the > > > > > state needs to be controlled. > > > > > > > > > > Some anarchists would say that delaying the > > > > > withering away was opportunist or something, > > > > > allowing a new class of state managers to > arise. > > > But > > > > > abolishing the state right away allows rule > by > > > those > > > > > with the most AK-47s. > > > > > > > > > > of course, it ain't bloody likely that the > state > > > > > will be abolished soon -- unless the system > > > melts > > > > > down. I doubt that an environmental crisis > > > would > > > > > produce a very attractive anarchy. > > > > > > > > > > The IWW (OBU) was great, as a first step in > the > > > > > development of a working-class movement. > > > Politics > > > > > are needed too. > > > > > > > > > > Jim > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Yoshie Furuhashi > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Tue 8/12/2003 7:31 AM > > > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > Cc: > > > > > Subject: Re: [PEN-L] Green > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >is there a color which represents > > > democracy? I'd > > > > > prefer democracy to > > > > > >anarchism (which precludes > democracy). > > > > > >Jim > > > > > > > > > > Anarchy, to me, means democracy, i.e., > > > collective > > > > > self-government, > > > > > the very ideal to which Lenin spoke in > > > _The State > > > > > and Revolution." > > > > > Not all those who call themselves > > > anarchists agree > > > > > with me on this > > > > > interpretation, though. :-> > > > > > > > > > > I also like the idea of One Big Union. > > > "Would you > > > > > have freedom from > > > > > wage slavery? Then come join the > Grand > > > Industrial > > > > > Band! Would you > > > > > from mis'ry and hunger be free? Come > on, > > > do your > > > > > share, lend a > > > > > hand!" Listen to Utah Phillips sing > the > > > Joe Hill > > > > > song "There Is a > > > > > Power in a Union" at > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <http://video.pbs.org:8080/ramgen/joehill/UPThereIsPowerInAUni > > > on.rm?altplay=UPThereIsPowerInAUnion.rm>. > > > > > > > > I like the Black Cat log of the > Industrial > > > Workers > > > > of the World, too > > > > (I have a T-shirt with the logo on it), > > > except that > > > > cats rarely go > > > > for collective actions. :-0 > > > > -- > > > > Yoshie > > > > > > > > * Bring Them Home Now! > > > > <http://www.bringthemhomenow.org/> > > > > * Calendars of Events in Columbus: > > > > > > > <http://www.osu.edu/students/sif/calendar.html>, > > > > <http://www.freepress.org/calendar.php>, > & > > > > <http://www.cpanews.org/> > > > > * Student International Forum: > > > > <http://www.osu.edu/students/sif/> > > > > * Committee for Justice in Palestine: > > > > <http://www.osudivest.org/> > > > > * Al-Awda-Ohio: > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Al-Awda-Ohio> > > > > * Solidarity: > <http://solidarity.igc.org/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > > > > ***************************************************************** > > > Cognitive dissonance is the inner conflict > produced > > > when long-standing beliefs are contradicted by > new > > > evidence. > > > > > > http://profiles.yahoo.com/swillsqueal > > > > > > __________________________________ > > > Do you Yahoo!? > > > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site > > > design software > > > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > > > > > ===== > > > ***************************************************************** > > Cognitive dissonance is the inner conflict > produced when > > long-standing beliefs are contradicted by new > evidence. > > > > http://profiles.yahoo.com/swillsqueal > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site > design software > > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > ===== ***************************************************************** Cognitive dissonance is the inner conflict produced when long-standing beliefs are contradicted by new evidence. http://profiles.yahoo.com/swillsqueal __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
