Ralph, we agree on my primary complaint that utility/convenience is being lost.
I did, and do, recognize the validity of the problem of 'undefine' not not aligning with '.defined'. The docs indicate that being empty is the definition of undefinedness for non-scalar containers. Keeping 'undefine' as a name of this action is beneficial because 'undefined' and 'defined' are mainstream terminology and so enable people the find and understand Raku's variant behavior. A name like 'clear' would just be obscure--a great disadvantage. Thanks for the links. Rob On Sat, Mar 18, 2023 at 06:06:54PM +0000, Ralph Mellor wrote: > On Fri, Mar 17, 2023 at 11:11 PM rir <rir...@comcast.net> wrote: > > > > Deprecating 'undefine' is just making something easy more difficult. > > I see a problem with `undefine`: > > ``` > my @bar; > say @bar.defined, @bar.DEFINITE; # TrueTrue > undefine @bar; > say @bar.defined, @bar.DEFINITE; # TrueTrue > ``` > > I think a warning about this is the wrong solution. > > I think deprecation is the right solution. > > ---- > > That said, I'm a bit surprised that the deprecation message isn't something > like > > Please use `foobar` instead > > (where `foobar` does exactly the same thing as `undefine`, just using > a different name). > > ---- > > Maybe no one has yet thought of a name that isn't also fraught? > > Maybe there is no reasonable name? > > Maybe it's only Perl folk who would want `undefine`? > > Maybe it's only Perl folk who will see the deprecation message and be unhappy? > > Maybe, on balance, it's reasonable to consider it an opportunity to remind > Perl > folk that a fresh uninitialized array or hash is NOT undefined? > > Dunno. Just keeping an open mind. > > Onward... > > ---- > > I searched Rakudo's sources for "undefine". > > No useful match?!? Looks like GH search goes from bad to worse. Sigh. > > ---- > > `say &undefine.file` got me `SETTING::src/core.d/operators.pm6`: > https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/591157170d29f8a45ef316bb0d065e8437059112/src/core.d/operators.pm6#L1-L9: > > Git blame led to this commit: > https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/72bac6708002f992952ca93e617435482824b95f > > The commit message mentions "6.d-prep". > > A google for that led to: > https://github.com/Raku/6.d-prep > > Results of a GH search included > https://github.com/Raku/6.d-prep/search?q=undefine&type=issues > > I ask that no one here comments on the discussions therein unless > they are *very* careful to avoid using inflammatory language. > > ---- > > Next I decided to search IRC. That led to this by Larry: > > > I think we should s/undefine/clear/, because clarity > > (https://irclogs.raku.org/perl6/2015-07-02.html#17:19-0001 > > ---- > > Liz suggested it was perhaps redundant. > > (A similar argument appeared in the 6d prep issues.) > > Larry didn't reply. Warnock's dilemma applies though I don't think > Larry ever missed anything. I think he always went with his gut; if > he felt he'd be repeating himself he said nothing. > > ---- > > And so we arrive at 2023 and the same issue arises as ever. > > Can we be kind to each other even if we don't agree, even if we > are upset about some decision? > > ---- > > love, ralph
