Thank you for the detailed info Stef. Regards! Esteban A. Maringolo
2018-04-01 16:16 GMT-03:00 Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.s...@gmail.com>: > My last email on VM topics... > > Hi esteban > > Just for the record, our team spent a lot of engineering time and > money on Pharo. > May be I forgot some people. Often we bent research projects to > squeese in Pharo activities. > > - Pavel 1 year paid for bootstrap and general improvements > - Denis 2 years paid for TelePharo (for research projects) > - Igor 4 years paid for athens, SDL, VM Build, TxText > - Christophe 5 years bootstrap, ci, infras, plauncher, cargo > - Clement two years as young engineer on compiler/VM > - Clement 6 months on Sista > > - Camillo 3 years for his Phd > - Guille 3 years for his Phd > - Pablo 3 years for his Phd > - Mariano 3 years for his Phd > - Clement 3 years for thisPhd > > - Guille two years on various improvements > - Me several years > - Marcus several years > - Damien on side project > - Esteban 4 years by Inria > > - Nicolas Passerini got paid by the consortium 9 months > - Guillermo paid 6 months for database > - you and mariano got paid for side projects for a couple of months > > Right now only Esteban is paid by the consortium because this what the > consortium > can pay! > > If I sum up Inria put a lot of money on the table compared to the > users and people > benefitting from Pharo. But this is like that. > > So I think that the consortium is a positive thing. Some people may > think the contrary. > Now do not expect miracles. A single guy cannot do much. > Retrospectively I think that > I made a mistake pushing to have tools for git. We should have go the > filetree way > and command line and gain 18 months of work. But I cannot be right all > the time. > > Now if all the companies doing Pharo would put money on the table then > we could have > another full time engineer working to improve the situation. I hope > that this will happen. > > Then about the VM: a VM is a complex piece of engineering. > And in the open-source community people apparently like to put in addition > not good process and extra constraints (super compatibility, different > dialects), not good communication, > So we end up with a not good situation. > > Now I will not read and send any emails about the VM in the future. I > have a set a filter to > automatically trash any emails on the topic. So if you send me an > email and you see now reaction it is normal. > I think that we make no progress and we are even on regression on this part. > > We will talk with the consortium members and asked them what is the priority > and if the VM is one of them, then we will have to take real decisions > to make progress. > Now since we cannot form someone on VM core rapidly we will see what are the > options. But to me what is clear is that the situation cannot continue > to be like that. > We cannot not control our process. > > Stef > > > On Sun, Apr 1, 2018 at 6:02 PM, Esteban A. Maringolo > <emaring...@gmail.com> wrote: >> Stef, >> >> I encourage you to disclose as much details as possible. >> >> For "bystanders" as myself, it is, a Pharo _user_ that always thinks >> of Pharo as the first option but >> doesn't contribute to the core of it, all this discussions only add >> noise and concerns about the >> stability of the whole Pharo ecosystem. >> >> I've always had the impression that Pharo is heavily dependent on >> INRIA's/government institutions, >> which in the end depend on political decisions instead of >> "market/profit" objectives. >> With the support of members of the Consortium I thought this had changed, but >> reading your statements it seems it is not enough. >> >> It is known you don't have the best temper, but it is also known you >> strive to get the best for Pharo, >> so if you're also aware of that you can avoid restraining yourself, >> and say what you have >> in mind trying to not make personal accusations. >> >> I'd prefer a brutal and noisy truth instead of false quiet calm. >> >> I hope this helps. >> >> Regards, >> >> Esteban A. Maringolo >> >> >> 2018-04-01 10:16 GMT-03:00 Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.s...@gmail.com>: >>> I will not reply publicly to this email because I think that it will get >>> worse. >>> So I will not talk publicly about anything related to the Pharo VM in >>> the Pharo mailing-list and any other lists. >>> I will put a filter and trash emails automatically. Like that I will >>> get touched anymore by what I see. >>> >>> You may think that I'm wrong. I'm probably. >>> >>> Now just to make clear: I funded all the PhD of Clement, and all the >>> work of Igor around the VM. >>> And many other engineers and PhD (C. Bruni, Sophie, ...) >>> I'm fighting to make the Pharo consortium working so that we can pay >>> people like Esteban >>> (Esteban is not working in Pharo just because he cannot find a job >>> outside our little community and this >>> is the case for many other people) and other people. >>> >>> Stef >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 1, 2018 at 2:33 PM, Nicolas Cellier >>> <nicolas.cellier.aka.n...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> 2018-04-01 11:36 GMT+02:00 Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.s...@gmail.com>: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Torsten >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for this question. >>>>> >>>>> Ephemerons do not work in Pharo sadly and we know it. We cannot then >>>>> take advantage of them. >>>>> What you see is in fact a degradation of the situation around the VM. :( >>>>> We are concerned about this but the path for our future in this domain >>>>> is unclear. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Stephane, >>>> the future is in your hand. >>>> Put milestones on opensmalltalk-vm, open new entries on opensmalltalk-vm >>>> issue tracker, put engineering force to solve pharo-specific build >>>> failures. >>>> In one word, help us to help you. >>>> >>>> So could you please explain what did you do exactly to help ephemerons >>>> being >>>> implemented in spur, and what are the forces couter-acting your efforts? >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> What is clear is that we will reduce the number of Plugin (as pablo >>>>> did for freetype) and use FFI. >>>>> But FFI callbacks are not really good. And we need a threaded VM. Now >>>>> nothing happens on this front. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Yes, we all want that! >>>> It's just that it does not happen by magic nor handwaving. >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Let us face it there is a bad energy around. After years of discussion >>>>> our engineers >>>>> are still struggling and slowed down because of the dispersion of plugin >>>>> code. >>>>> In addition, from what I understood there is no development branch :) >>>>> amazing is not it in 2020! >>>>> >>>> How sarcasms are going to federate and encourage people to make progress? >>>> What can you obtain with this sort of sentence but further splitting the >>>> community? >>>> Is it your goal? >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On another scale, since 1 year, I was focusing on making that our >>>>> institute offers a permanent position to Clement but I failed >>>>> because the forces against where too strong (politics) and clement >>>>> should reapply next year. >>>>> Now to improve his CV, clement is doing a postdoc at VUB and will >>>>> start working on Truffle (the VM of Oracle) >>>>> and continue to work part time on Sista. >>>>> This is not that bad, like that he will gain experience on other >>>>> systems and in the future >>>>> we will be in the position to see if there are real alternatives for >>>>> us. May be writing a new VM >>>>> on top of other existing infrastructure is the way to go. We will see >>>>> in the future. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Unfortunately, the rules of French institutions certainly do not help >>>> you... >>>> Maybe Truffle is a possible future for you, more solid than 100% own fork >>>> for sure. >>>> >>>> >>>>> To be fully transparent >>>>> >>>>> - we will have one phd working on IoT and how to reduce/clean the image >>>>> and >>>>> VM size and many other points she will probably work on a fork because >>>>> I cannot suicide a >>>>> student (by asking her to understand the messy plugin architecture) >>>>> and she will need some space to experiment. >>>>> Now if improvements she will perform take ages to be integrated in the >>>>> main VM I will ask >>>>> her not to do it and to focus on her future and science. >>>>> I imagine that everybody paying attention to people can understand this. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> Good to know that you are paying attention to people, I had the impression >>>> that this was not allways the case. >>>> I'm willing to help Pharo, I've helped producing Pharo brand 64 bits >>>> windows >>>> VM more than one year ago. >>>> I'm struggling to make the community beneficial to all, but I don't feel >>>> like I get a lot of support and wonder if I'm not completely mistaken when >>>> I >>>> see all the efforts deployed to tear it apart... >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Stef >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 9:00 PM, Torsten Bergmann <asta...@gmx.de> wrote: >>>>> > Hi, >>>>> > >>>>> > by accident I stumbled upon the following code in >>>>> > AnnouncementSubscription: >>>>> > >>>>> > makeWeak >>>>> > action isBlock ifTrue: [ self error: 'Not currently available due to >>>>> > missing ephemerons support']. >>>>> > ... >>>>> > >>>>> > My understanding is that we have Ephemeron support in Pharo now working. >>>>> > Right? >>>>> > >>>>> > Anyone with more insights who knows how to fix/complete this? Should we >>>>> > at least open an issue? >>>>> > >>>>> > Thx >>>>> > T. >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >
