hi all i have many early victor picture records and they seem to hold up a bit better than the vogues but they are all fun to collect disney even had some sung by frank luther such as dance of the boogey man and the winnie the pooh group in the early thirties In a message dated 8/14/2008 4:44:39 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, cdh041 at earthlink.net writes:
Or, possibly that Saffady felt that the aluminum substrate, allied with the flexible plastic would make a virtually indestructable sandwich. Plastics were not as well understood in 1946 as they are now. And too, as I have to remind everyone I chat with, records, radios, cars, phonographs were not expected to be in service, or indeed, even existence 50 years after they were made. We have no right to demand eternal survival of anything more than perhaps, Gibraltar or the Rockies......and per Ira Gershwin, they're only made of clay! > [Original Message] > From: Greg Bogantz <gbogantz1 at charter.net> > To: Antique Phonograph List <phono-l at oldcrank.org> > Date: 8/14/2008 4:26:03 PM > Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Vogue Picture Records values > > Yes, the vinyl records from the postwar period have held up surprisingly > well so far. Certainly better than magnetic tape from that period. If you > can manage to find a Vogue that hasn't been played or scratched to death, > the sound quality on them is pretty good. But one of their potential > problems is the oxidation of the aluminum substrate. I have more than one > Vogue that has been severely cracked or chipped in years past which has > allowed moisture and air to get to the aluminum surface. This causes mild > to severe powderizing and bubbling of oxide to form on the aluminum which > then bubbles up the paper and vinyl sheet laid on top of it. This damage > can usually be heard before it's seen - the bubbling causes a noticeable > increase in the rumble content when you play the record. I'm not sure why > Vogues were made with an aluminum substrate rather than using a vinyl core > as is done with modern picture records. Might have been a patent > infringement thing since RCA and others had made picture records in the > 1930s. > > Greg Bogantz > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Douglas Houston" <cdh041 at earthlink.net> > To: "Antique Phonograph List" <phono-l at oldcrank.org> > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 2:45 PM > Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Vogue Picture Records values > > > > Indeed. There have been very few plastics that have had any permanence. > > Catalin has shown to be more stable than many others, but when the > > plasticizer finally dries out of the plasticx, it's curtains for the > > piece. > > In the thirties, plastics were all the panic. There were things shown in > > plastics that were downright sensational. I'm sure that a lot of people > > thought that glass would soon be made obsolete by gorgeous plastic things. > > Well, my mother and my aunt didn't throw out their cut crystal, and I now > > have a couple of cabinets full of it. > > > > In those days (that I remember so well), the automotive industry went > > ballistic over plastics too. Today, there are guys who re-mold steering > > wheels for those cars. The big plstic was Tenite I, a plastic by Tennessee > > Eastman in Kingsport, Tennessee. You'll travel long and far to see an > > original steering wheel on a prewar car!. However, I have a '38 Cadillac, > > with the original steering wheel, and still decent dash plastic, and you > > just don't ever see that. > > > > Which brings us to the Vogue records. Tom Saffady, a tool and die maker > > on > > East eight mile road in East Detroit (Across 8 Mile from Detroit) got the > > idea of making these pretty records. I understand that he used an aluminum > > base, attached the artwork to it, and molded the plastic to it, pressing > > the recording in the same operation. While I don't know for sure what the > > plastic is, I'm sure that it's a vinyl, and of the best quality at the > > time. When they hit the stores, they made quite a splash, and they sold > > well, more for their novel character than anything else. No surprise, they > > were priced higher than the major brand shellac discs, but their charm > > gave > > them their value. Sadly, the novelty wore off, and Saffady wasn't able to > > get the price down to meet the competition. He had tried to have a > > multiple > > pressing rig, to perss (I believe) nine discs at once, but it never > > worked. > > He folded, unfortunately, and his building later housed a cutthroat > > department store caled something like Hall of bargains. One day, I passed > > there, and the place had been gutted by fire, and not all of the walls > > were > > standing. I believe that there is a fast food place on that site today. > > > > So, what about the plastic that Sav-Way Industries (Tom Saffady) used on > > those discs? Astoundingly, it seems to have held up very well. Since Vinyl > > plastics harden and shrink with age, I would worry about the Vogue discs > > deteriorating at some time in the future. Plastics are not permanent, and > > the newest Vogue disc is about 62 byears old. The aluminum core will not > > shrink, but the plastic could. > > > > > >> [Original Message] > >> From: Greg Bogantz <gbogantz1 at charter.net> > >> To: Antique Phonograph List <phono-l at oldcrank.org> > >> Date: 8/13/2008 5:02:57 PM > >> Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Vogue Picture Records values > >> > >> Doug, it's especially ironic that you use the phrase "the base in the > >> catalin game is crumbling". Not just the base, but the cabinets > > themselves. > >> Catalin degenerates steadily and eventually falls apart with age. > > Shoving a > >> bunch of money at catalin is like stacking time bombs on your shelf. Not > >> unlike investing in Edison 4-minute wax amberols. Sit them on your shelf > >> and listen for the steady "clink, tink, clunk" of the records > >> self-destructing as the temperature and humidity changes in your house. > >> "Investors" who sink a lot of money in these absurdities deserve what > >> they're going to get - a pile of dust before it's all over. > >> > >> Greg Bogantz > >> > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Douglas Houston" <cdh041 at earthlink.net> > >> To: "Antique Phonograph List" <phono-l at oldcrank.org> > >> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 4:43 PM > >> Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Vogue Picture Records values > >> > >> > >> > Reading all these comments looks like the replay of a lot of > >> > collector's > >> > panics over the years. I saw it with coins, back in the sixties, with a > >> > friend who was into them, and I probably know of other similar > > situations > >> > as well. The price level spirals up to the point that the only > >> > exchanges > >> > are from dealer to dealer. Dealers begin to get tired of getting the > > same > >> > item over and over, and somewhere, somebody stops buying. It is then, > >> > that > >> > the tower tumbles, and a lot of nspeculators lose a bundle on > > now-lowered > >> > value stuff. > >> > > >> > One thing that comes to mind right now, is the hunger for radios with > >> > catalin cabinets. They've gone thousands of bucks for some models. As > > far > >> > as radios go, the chassis in them are 99.9999% cheap, and dinky. It's > > the > >> > pretty plastic cases that are the real issue. It isn't radio collectors > >> > that want them. It's those who want the pret-ty colorful cabinets, and > > of > >> > course, the capital gains that result from the exchange of them. > >> > > >> > On the surface, at least, there has never been any short supply of > >> > them. > >> > There are dealers in the big rado meets, who have 20 or 30 of them on > >> > their > >> > table. It's amusing that lots of sellers on the 'bay call a bakelite > > radio > >> > cabinet Catalin. I'm sure that many a buyer has been badly jostled by > > one > >> > of those shysters, but the buyer should research, and know what he / > > she > >> > is > >> > buying. Anyway, it's now beginning th look like the base in the > >> > catalin > >> > game is crumbling. There are signs that prices are possibly on the way > >> > down, and I'd be delighted to see it happen. The cabinets are pretty; > > the > >> > radios are garbage. > >> > > >> > One of the things that killed Vogue records in the first place was that > >> > they never had a hit. I also recall that they were priced at $1.05, > > while > >> > the major labels sold for $.75 I bought a couple of them, new back > >> > then, > >> > not for what was on them, but because they were pretty. Someone has > >> > already said that Vogue discs are desirable, not so much for their > >> > programmatic content, but their cuteness. Today, wise people are > > pulling > >> > in > >> > their horns, and hanging on to their mazuma. We are already in an > > economic > >> > slump, and it promises to get slumpier. I can imagine other scenarios > > like > >> > this in the days ahead. > >> > > >> > > >> >> [Original Message] > >> >> From: Mike Stitt <smstitt at gmail.com> > >> >> To: Antique Phonograph List <phono-l at oldcrank.org> > >> >> Date: 8/13/2008 2:13:30 PM > >> >> Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Vogue Picture Records values > >> >> > >> >> Vogues went high after Ed Curry's book. Before the book they were > >> >> cheap. I even found them at Goodwill. > >> >> The market is very soft across the board. High prices bring more to > >> >> market. eBay helped to do that. Collectors get all they need. I > >> >> suggest Vogues in the market exceeded interested or new collectors > >> >> entering into that market. Most casual collectors are content to have > >> >> a few as they define a genre. Few want a complete number run > >> >> (production run) at a $100 a pop. IMHO. The Queen for a Day a few > >> >> years back went for "stupid money." > >> >> I have many Vogues and have little interest in them at those prices. > >> >> Mike > >> >> > >> >> On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 10:37 AM, Albert <cenfin at comcast.net> wrote: > >> >> > for sure, I got bit by the bug and bought up as many as I could > > trying > >> > to > >> >> > complete the collection and I almost did, but have probably lost > > about > >> > half > >> >> > of my investment. I am missing the Transformer and Queen for a Day. > > I > >> > have > >> >> > to assume those are still worth a lot. Al > >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> > From: <wilenzick at bellsouth.net> > >> >> > To: "Antique Phonograph List" <phono-l at oldcrank.org> > >> >> > Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 10:20 AM > >> >> > Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Vogue Picture Records values > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> >> Thanks for your interesting comment on the Vogues. I agree with > > you > >> >> >> on > >> >> >> the > >> >> >> reason for the drop in value of the Wurlitzer 1015, but I am not so > >> > sure > >> >> >> the > >> >> >> same argument applies to the Vogues. The 1015's were bought and > > sold > >> > as > >> >> >> entertainment devices, and the bars, etc. that bought them for 45s > > and > >> > CDs > >> >> >> could care less if they were original or reproduction machines. On > >> >> >> the > >> >> >> other hand, vogues were generally not bought for their music > > content, > >> > but > >> >> >> rather as vintage collectibles. Prior to eBay, collectors > > considered > >> > them > >> >> >> to be "scarce" items, and most record collectors, I would think, > > would > >> >> >> have > >> >> >> little interest in the reproductions. Once eBay demonstrated to > >> >> >> the > >> > hobby > >> >> >> that they were rather plentiful, the prices started to drop to the > >> > current > >> >> >> low values. I don't know how well the reproduction Vogues are > >> >> >> doing > >> > these > >> >> >> days, but I don't see them advertised very much (although I don't > > look > >> > for > >> >> >> them). Whatever the reason for the price decline, Vogues don't > >> >> >> look > >> > like > >> >> >> good investments these days :) > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Ray > >> >> >> > >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> >> From: "Albert" <cenfin at comcast.net> > >> >> >> To: "Antique Phonograph List" <phono-l at oldcrank.org> > >> >> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 12:01 PM > >> >> >> Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Vogue Picture Records values > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >>> Ray, I think Ebay actually raised the value of vogues and there > > was a > >> > lot > >> >> >>> of > >> >> >>> activity for a long time on ebay. Many hit the market and it was > > not > >> >> >>> unusual > >> >> >>> to see them go for more than $100. But the prices started > > dropping > >> >> >>> quickly > >> >> >>> when a lot of reproduction Vogues hit the market. The repros > > looked > >> >> >>> pretty > >> >> >>> good and they were copies of some of the more desireable numbers. > > I > >> >> >>> compare > >> >> >>> that to the Wurlitzer 1015 where originals used to sell for > > $12,000. > >> >> >>> With > >> >> >>> the huge number of reproduction 1015s that played 45's and CD;s > >> >> >>> the > >> > value > >> >> >>> of > >> >> >>> originals dropped to $5000 to 6000. I may be wrong but I dont > > think > >> > it > >> >> >>> was > >> >> >>> Ebay so much as the proliferation of reproductions. Al Menashe > >> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> >>> From: <wilenzick at bellsouth.net> > >> >> >>> To: <phonolist at yahoogroups.com>; <Phono-L at oldcrank.org> > >> >> >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 4:55 PM > >> >> >>> Subject: [Phono-L] Vogue Picture Records values > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>>> Around 10 to 15 years ago, most Vogues (except the rare 8 or 9 > > ones) > >> >> >>>> sold > >> >> >>>> in the neighborhood of $100 or so. With the advent of eBay, > >> >> >>>> their > >> > value > >> >> >>>> has dropped significantly. It seems that most go for $20-$30 or > >> >> >>>> less > >> >> >>>> these days. Value guides were available at one time, but now are > >> >> >>>> worthless. Are there any Vogue collectors on the list that would > >> > have a > >> >> >>>> spreadsheet or other information on current values of these > > picture > >> >> >>>> records? Is there a factor, such as 1/4 or 1/3 that could be > >> > applied to > >> >> >>>> the old values that would approximate the current value? Thanks > > for > >> > any > >> >> >>>> information.. > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> Ray Wilenzick > >> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ > >> >> >>>> Phono-L mailing list > >> >> >>>> http://phono-l.oldcrank.org > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> -- > >> >> >>>> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. > >> >> >>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition. > >> >> >>>> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.19/955 - Release Date: > >> >> >>>> 8/15/2007 > >> >> >>>> 4:55 PM > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ > >> >> >>> Phono-L mailing list > >> >> >>> http://phono-l.oldcrank.org > >> >> >>> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> >> Phono-L mailing list > >> >> >> http://phono-l.oldcrank.org > >> >> > > >> >> > _______________________________________________ > >> >> > Phono-L mailing list > >> >> > http://phono-l.oldcrank.org > >> >> > > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> Phono-L mailing list > >> >> http://phono-l.oldcrank.org > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > Phono-L mailing list > >> > http://phono-l.oldcrank.org > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Phono-L mailing list > >> http://phono-l.oldcrank.org > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Phono-L mailing list > > http://phono-l.oldcrank.org > > _______________________________________________ > Phono-L mailing list > http://phono-l.oldcrank.org _______________________________________________ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? 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