Indeed. There have been very few plastics that have had any permanence. Catalin has shown to be more stable than many others, but when the plasticizer finally dries out of the plasticx, it's curtains for the piece. In the thirties, plastics were all the panic. There were things shown in plastics that were downright sensational. I'm sure that a lot of people thought that glass would soon be made obsolete by gorgeous plastic things. Well, my mother and my aunt didn't throw out their cut crystal, and I now have a couple of cabinets full of it.
In those days (that I remember so well), the automotive industry went ballistic over plastics too. Today, there are guys who re-mold steering wheels for those cars. The big plstic was Tenite I, a plastic by Tennessee Eastman in Kingsport, Tennessee. You'll travel long and far to see an original steering wheel on a prewar car!. However, I have a '38 Cadillac, with the original steering wheel, and still decent dash plastic, and you just don't ever see that. Which brings us to the Vogue records. Tom Saffady, a tool and die maker on East eight mile road in East Detroit (Across 8 Mile from Detroit) got the idea of making these pretty records. I understand that he used an aluminum base, attached the artwork to it, and molded the plastic to it, pressing the recording in the same operation. While I don't know for sure what the plastic is, I'm sure that it's a vinyl, and of the best quality at the time. When they hit the stores, they made quite a splash, and they sold well, more for their novel character than anything else. No surprise, they were priced higher than the major brand shellac discs, but their charm gave them their value. Sadly, the novelty wore off, and Saffady wasn't able to get the price down to meet the competition. He had tried to have a multiple pressing rig, to perss (I believe) nine discs at once, but it never worked. He folded, unfortunately, and his building later housed a cutthroat department store caled something like Hall of bargains. One day, I passed there, and the place had been gutted by fire, and not all of the walls were standing. I believe that there is a fast food place on that site today. So, what about the plastic that Sav-Way Industries (Tom Saffady) used on those discs? Astoundingly, it seems to have held up very well. Since Vinyl plastics harden and shrink with age, I would worry about the Vogue discs deteriorating at some time in the future. Plastics are not permanent, and the newest Vogue disc is about 62 byears old. The aluminum core will not shrink, but the plastic could. > [Original Message] > From: Greg Bogantz <gbogantz1 at charter.net> > To: Antique Phonograph List <phono-l at oldcrank.org> > Date: 8/13/2008 5:02:57 PM > Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Vogue Picture Records values > > Doug, it's especially ironic that you use the phrase "the base in the > catalin game is crumbling". Not just the base, but the cabinets themselves. > Catalin degenerates steadily and eventually falls apart with age. Shoving a > bunch of money at catalin is like stacking time bombs on your shelf. Not > unlike investing in Edison 4-minute wax amberols. Sit them on your shelf > and listen for the steady "clink, tink, clunk" of the records > self-destructing as the temperature and humidity changes in your house. > "Investors" who sink a lot of money in these absurdities deserve what > they're going to get - a pile of dust before it's all over. > > Greg Bogantz > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Douglas Houston" <cdh041 at earthlink.net> > To: "Antique Phonograph List" <phono-l at oldcrank.org> > Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 4:43 PM > Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Vogue Picture Records values > > > > Reading all these comments looks like the replay of a lot of collector's > > panics over the years. I saw it with coins, back in the sixties, with a > > friend who was into them, and I probably know of other similar situations > > as well. The price level spirals up to the point that the only exchanges > > are from dealer to dealer. Dealers begin to get tired of getting the same > > item over and over, and somewhere, somebody stops buying. It is then, > > that > > the tower tumbles, and a lot of nspeculators lose a bundle on now-lowered > > value stuff. > > > > One thing that comes to mind right now, is the hunger for radios with > > catalin cabinets. They've gone thousands of bucks for some models. As far > > as radios go, the chassis in them are 99.9999% cheap, and dinky. It's the > > pretty plastic cases that are the real issue. It isn't radio collectors > > that want them. It's those who want the pret-ty colorful cabinets, and of > > course, the capital gains that result from the exchange of them. > > > > On the surface, at least, there has never been any short supply of them. > > There are dealers in the big rado meets, who have 20 or 30 of them on > > their > > table. It's amusing that lots of sellers on the 'bay call a bakelite radio > > cabinet Catalin. I'm sure that many a buyer has been badly jostled by one > > of those shysters, but the buyer should research, and know what he / she > > is > > buying. Anyway, it's now beginning th look like the base in the catalin > > game is crumbling. There are signs that prices are possibly on the way > > down, and I'd be delighted to see it happen. The cabinets are pretty; the > > radios are garbage. > > > > One of the things that killed Vogue records in the first place was that > > they never had a hit. I also recall that they were priced at $1.05, while > > the major labels sold for $.75 I bought a couple of them, new back then, > > not for what was on them, but because they were pretty. Someone has > > already said that Vogue discs are desirable, not so much for their > > programmatic content, but their cuteness. Today, wise people are pulling > > in > > their horns, and hanging on to their mazuma. We are already in an economic > > slump, and it promises to get slumpier. I can imagine other scenarios like > > this in the days ahead. > > > > > >> [Original Message] > >> From: Mike Stitt <smstitt at gmail.com> > >> To: Antique Phonograph List <phono-l at oldcrank.org> > >> Date: 8/13/2008 2:13:30 PM > >> Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Vogue Picture Records values > >> > >> Vogues went high after Ed Curry's book. Before the book they were > >> cheap. I even found them at Goodwill. > >> The market is very soft across the board. High prices bring more to > >> market. eBay helped to do that. Collectors get all they need. I > >> suggest Vogues in the market exceeded interested or new collectors > >> entering into that market. Most casual collectors are content to have > >> a few as they define a genre. Few want a complete number run > >> (production run) at a $100 a pop. IMHO. The Queen for a Day a few > >> years back went for "stupid money." > >> I have many Vogues and have little interest in them at those prices. > >> Mike > >> > >> On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 10:37 AM, Albert <cenfin at comcast.net> wrote: > >> > for sure, I got bit by the bug and bought up as many as I could trying > > to > >> > complete the collection and I almost did, but have probably lost about > > half > >> > of my investment. I am missing the Transformer and Queen for a Day. I > > have > >> > to assume those are still worth a lot. Al > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: <wilenzick at bellsouth.net> > >> > To: "Antique Phonograph List" <phono-l at oldcrank.org> > >> > Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 10:20 AM > >> > Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Vogue Picture Records values > >> > > >> > > >> >> Thanks for your interesting comment on the Vogues. I agree with you > >> >> on > >> >> the > >> >> reason for the drop in value of the Wurlitzer 1015, but I am not so > > sure > >> >> the > >> >> same argument applies to the Vogues. The 1015's were bought and sold > > as > >> >> entertainment devices, and the bars, etc. that bought them for 45s and > > CDs > >> >> could care less if they were original or reproduction machines. On > >> >> the > >> >> other hand, vogues were generally not bought for their music content, > > but > >> >> rather as vintage collectibles. Prior to eBay, collectors considered > > them > >> >> to be "scarce" items, and most record collectors, I would think, would > >> >> have > >> >> little interest in the reproductions. Once eBay demonstrated to the > > hobby > >> >> that they were rather plentiful, the prices started to drop to the > > current > >> >> low values. I don't know how well the reproduction Vogues are doing > > these > >> >> days, but I don't see them advertised very much (although I don't look > > for > >> >> them). Whatever the reason for the price decline, Vogues don't look > > like > >> >> good investments these days :) > >> >> > >> >> Ray > >> >> > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> From: "Albert" <cenfin at comcast.net> > >> >> To: "Antique Phonograph List" <phono-l at oldcrank.org> > >> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 12:01 PM > >> >> Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Vogue Picture Records values > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>> Ray, I think Ebay actually raised the value of vogues and there was a > > lot > >> >>> of > >> >>> activity for a long time on ebay. Many hit the market and it was not > >> >>> unusual > >> >>> to see them go for more than $100. But the prices started dropping > >> >>> quickly > >> >>> when a lot of reproduction Vogues hit the market. The repros looked > >> >>> pretty > >> >>> good and they were copies of some of the more desireable numbers. I > >> >>> compare > >> >>> that to the Wurlitzer 1015 where originals used to sell for $12,000. > >> >>> With > >> >>> the huge number of reproduction 1015s that played 45's and CD;s the > > value > >> >>> of > >> >>> originals dropped to $5000 to 6000. I may be wrong but I dont think > > it > >> >>> was > >> >>> Ebay so much as the proliferation of reproductions. Al Menashe > >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >>> From: <wilenzick at bellsouth.net> > >> >>> To: <phonolist at yahoogroups.com>; <Phono-L at oldcrank.org> > >> >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 4:55 PM > >> >>> Subject: [Phono-L] Vogue Picture Records values > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>>> Around 10 to 15 years ago, most Vogues (except the rare 8 or 9 ones) > >> >>>> sold > >> >>>> in the neighborhood of $100 or so. With the advent of eBay, their > > value > >> >>>> has dropped significantly. It seems that most go for $20-$30 or > >> >>>> less > >> >>>> these days. Value guides were available at one time, but now are > >> >>>> worthless. Are there any Vogue collectors on the list that would > > have a > >> >>>> spreadsheet or other information on current values of these picture > >> >>>> records? Is there a factor, such as 1/4 or 1/3 that could be > > applied to > >> >>>> the old values that would approximate the current value? Thanks for > > any > >> >>>> information.. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Ray Wilenzick > >> >>>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>>> Phono-L mailing list > >> >>>> http://phono-l.oldcrank.org > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> -- > >> >>>> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. > >> >>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition. > >> >>>> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.19/955 - Release Date: > >> >>>> 8/15/2007 > >> >>>> 4:55 PM > >> >>>> > >> >>> > >> >>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>> Phono-L mailing list > >> >>> http://phono-l.oldcrank.org > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> Phono-L mailing list > >> >> http://phono-l.oldcrank.org > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > Phono-L mailing list > >> > http://phono-l.oldcrank.org > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Phono-L mailing list > >> http://phono-l.oldcrank.org > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Phono-L mailing list > > http://phono-l.oldcrank.org > > _______________________________________________ > Phono-L mailing list > http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
