Hi All, Sorry Sterling but some of your statements are inaccurate and some of them are just no big deal at all.
All in all this is a no problem. Yes Manuel has a style that makes some people go nuts, but only because people let themselves go nuts. I am new to the php-dev list and the pear-dev list but I allready got my taste of most of those threads and in all instances I tried to mediate between both sides. I don't understand why it is so hard to focus on the valuable info that Manuels posts to bring to the table. I know he has a way of formulating critic that is sometime hard to swallow. So you jump on him. He jumps back at the replier and there we go: a flame war. You all are programmers that are skilled at recognizing patterns and yet you all keep falling for it. I don't get it. Of course his cynic comments about developers ignoring bc or not fixing bugs can be used as a great basis to get pissed off. But by jumping on those comments you are not doing anything to help. If people would just reply and set the record straight there would be no problem. Or ignore it and proof the public otherwise. Instead of letting Manuel ruin your productivity let him be the devil that remind me of the most evil perspective of PHPs worst enemy could portray to the world about PHP. But in the end remember that Manuel is no enemy of PHP but is just trying to be the devils advocate. Actually if you want hate his guts, but don't fill up mailinglists with useless flamewars. I know I have done little for PHP to have much respect in the PHP dev community. And maybe I am allready viewed as someone that tries to suckup to Manuel because I have sided with a fair number of his arguments. In all of those arguments I tried to keep the discussion focused in the issue at hand and away from flame wars. I liked to think that maybe I helped get the db abstraction layer merger accepted (I now have to proof that I will follow through and deliver now). But this just proofs to me that there is value in what Manuel sais and does and that it would hurt PHP if his voice would be silenced. So please try to take on the challenge of focusing on the content in Manuels emails that matters to PHP and ignore everything else. I assure you mastering this challenge will help you greatly in the future. A good example of how to handle things is Zak. When I met him at the php conference it was quite obvious to me that he is the kind of person that focuses on things that actually help going further and that will not let people distract him from this. I very much appreciate his style. And it shows in one of the threads you pasted Sterling: http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=php-dev&m=101084014908249&w=2 Please try to see this as an example of how to handle Manuel. I hope I have not wasted too much of valueable time. I know Zeev wanted to keep all of this out of the php-dev list, but I do prefer this being more transparent to the public and I also wanted to reply to Sterlings comments. Anyways its 11pm here, I have tons of bugs to fix but the latested developments have really sadend me. I hope this email follows in Zak's tradition of trying to keep things focused and steering ahead. Best regards, Lukas Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] _______________________________ DybNet Internet Solutions GbR Alt Moabit 89 10559 Berlin Germany Tel. : +49 30 83 22 50 00 Fax : +49 30 83 22 50 07 www.dybnet.de [EMAIL PROTECTED] _______________________________ > -----Original Message----- > From: Sterling Hughes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 8:58 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: [PHP-DEV] Nostalgia > > In honor of mr. lemos' impending departure, I've put together a > celebrartory list of links, to showcase mr. lemos' extraordinary talent > in using the english to irritate people... > > Ahh well, let's start with recent history -- it seems my good sir lemos, > did not like the fact that strtok() was finally POSIX compliant: > > http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=php-dev&m=101104226613770&w=2 > > Can't you just feel his agony? :) > > Here's manuel, chiding derick rethans for making fun of the fact that in > every e-mail he plugs phpclasses... Can you feel the self-righteous > indignation? > > http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=php-dev&m=101083823705898&w=2 > > truly wonderful quote: > > "What? You did not like my response? That's to make you think again next > time before you decide to get me started with your repressing arrogance. > :-(" > > your repressing arrogance. LOL... > > Following his message, manuel suggests that we start fixing some bugs, > instead of replying to idiocy. A good suggestion from our trusted > project leader! > > http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=php-dev&m=101085262125043&w=2 > > Btw, from now on, derick is to be called "Mr. Netcop". > > Now, who get forget that famous Webservices argument, which made Zeev > and Andi, call manuel a complete ass (btw, that would make them the last > members of the core team to do so :). This thread is truly hilarious, > but I've added some highlights: > > http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=php-dev&m=101001058319167&w=2 > > *especially good*: > http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=php-dev&m=101000614408489&w=2 > > Apparently manuel is the messenger of web services... :) > > But really, sir lemos' brilliance in pissing off a large number of > people with an otherwise inocuous message comes across: > > http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=php-dev&m=100991664710120&w=2 > > "One thing that I think it is really vital to prevent PHP to leak even > more users to other languages is to have built-in support for consuming > Web services." > > Was one of my favorite quotes. > > Of course, we all know manuel is a brilliant developer, and a fan of > XML, here he suggests it for defining a projects style: > > http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=pear-dev&m=100891216816964&w=2 > > Why XML? No, not because its easy to parse -- because its a buzzword. > > This is back in 2000, its a true gem... Manuel suggests that perhaps > he should be charging for his criticism: > > http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=php-dev&m=95897419318844&w=2 > > "Right. Too bad that some people don't value constructive criticism. > In > the real world people are paid to judge and criticise. Many of those > are > called consultants. I guess I get some hostile feedback to my criticisms > because I am not charging for it. Maybe I should. :-)" > > Right manuel! you preach brother! > > this was one of my favorite threads of all times, and my first > introduction to the annoying side of manuel (although it has reared its > head before this point).. > > http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=php-pear&m=97872857127874&w=2 > > Fucking commie bastard php developers! > > Ahhh well, I guess all I have to say is Hallelujah, praise the lord > jesus almighty.... Ok, I've avoided my chores for long enough -- thank > god both php-dev@ and myself will be cleaning house. > > -Sterling > > Talking to PHP users all over the place is always fun, but the planes, > trains, busses, hotels, customs weenies, moron security rent-a-cops, > inconsistent INS jerks, lost passports, atm fees, cell roaming fees, > crappy hotel restaurants, projectors that can't do 1024x768, power > failures, smokers in tiny elevators, wake-up calls, timezones, airline > change fees, hotel clerks with pea-sized brains, and any slow-thinking > wingnut who has gotten in my way during my travels in the past month can > collectively kiss my ass. > -- Rasmus Lerdorf > > -- > PHP Development Mailing List <http://www.php.net/> > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP Development Mailing List <http://www.php.net/> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php