Andreas, thanks for the clarification. > But for OpenSource we still should think about whether we want to have the base for our decissions, the discussion, in the hands of one company. Yes, the GoogleGroups is also in the hands of one Company, but the base is the mailinglist, which can (and should – who is taking care of that?) be archived elsewhere as well.
I understand this PoV, this is actually a good argument IF we consider "discussing topics that are not related to existing code snippets" are important as much to be archived. But on the other hand, if those discussions had taken place on a different platform (e.g. Github Discussions) it probably would be possible to create automated processes to archive them somewhere else. Of course if required, because IMHO the most important part of this Group takes place on Github already* (pull requests) and is reflected on https://www.php-fig.org/ * well, not actually → https://github.com/php-fig/fig-standards#github-usage (and this is something that had bring me here because personally I think this approach is not as friendly as it should be). Let's sum it up: - I would move all the technical discussions to Github's PRs (so mailing list wouldn't be required to process them, GH notifications + emails should be enough to keep track on them) - I would keep mailing list for discussions about overall processes - I would monitor Github Discussions and check if those are good for moving there from mailing list - I wouldn't do anything about IRC (let people use it if they want) but wouldn't use it for any important discussions (only Github PRs + mailing list/GH discussions for that) > You mixed up IIRC and IRC. Why that happened is not that much of interest to me. But it happened It was simple typo, hard to proofread because it looks almost the same. Don't get me wrong, I had good laugh after your tweet, but it doesn't change the fact it was behind the back since you went to different platform with it and I saw it only because my colleague showed it to me ;-) Have a good day, everyone! czwartek, 17 grudnia 2020 o 08:17:06 UTC+1 and...@heigl.org napisał(a): > Hey Grzegorz. > > Am 16.12.20 um 23:18 schrieb Grzegorz Korba: > > Ben, thanks for the link to Github Discussions, I did not see those > > before but it looks very promising! Another advantage over mailing list > :-) > > > > PS. Andreas, instead of talking behind the back > > (https://twitter.com/heiglandreas/status/1339278560574525449) you could > > simply have challenged my arguments. I was typing in rush and used IIRC > > instead of IRC because of your message, where you used this initialism > > ;-) Not to mention your tweet contains false narrative because topic is > > about switching IRC to chat, not mailing list to chat (and as a side > > topic I was talking about moving from mailing list to other system, not > > chat). > > One of the great advantages of mailinglists over chat is that you are > not in a rush. Unlike in a chat, where you might miss the connection to > a previous statement, you have much more time to read the arguments of > the others and then rethink and phrase your answer. > > So as Ben already mentioned, he was answering to the OP and perhaps you > realized that I was answering Ben. So my discussion was not about IRC > but about the Mailinglist as well. > > And I still think that Maillinglists are the best tool for discussing > topics that are not related to existing code snippets. For the later a > PR is for sure the better discussion base. And I'm really looking > forward to testing Github Discussions. But for OpenSource we still > should think about whether we want to have the base for our decissions, > the discussion, in the hands of one company. Yes, the GoogleGroups is > also in the hands of one Company, but the base is the mailinglist, which > can (and should – who is taking care of that?) be archived elsewhere as > well. > > To be fair: The mailinglist is already a weak replacement for a system > that would far better support the opensource collaboration and > discussion. But who would want to use NNTP again, especially as there > are almost no decent clients around. > > Cheers > > Andreas > > PS: On a personal note: I can not understand, why you consider a tweet – > which by it's very nature is public – as "behind the back". My main > issue – and the main narrative – of that tweet still stands and you also > stated it in your email as well: You mixed up IIRC and IRC. Why that > happened is not that much of interest to me. But it happened. As the > written discussion is the only discussion we have, it shows why > proofreading is important. And yes: I am worried when someone talks > about IRC and mixes up IRC and IIRC. > > środa, 16 grudnia 2020 o 19:48:48 UTC+1 Ben Ramsey napisał(a): > > > > Grzegorz, > > > > I was responding to the OP and not your response about GitHub > > issues/pull requests. GitHub also recently released a new feature > > called “discussions” that might work, too. It appears to provide > > threaded discussions, and I agree with you that these tools meet the > > openness requirements of open source communities. > > > > Here’s an example: https://github.com/github/docs/discussions > > > > Cheers, > > Ben > > > >> On Dec 16, 2020, at 12:32, Grzegorz Korba <wir...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> > /I think chat is great for ad hoc discussions and meetings, but > >> when it’s time to make any decisions, everything (including ideas > >> discussed in chat) needs to move to a medium that can support > >> transparency and openness. Right now, that’s mailing lists./ > >> > >> Github issues / pull requests *ARE* transparent (don't require > >> account to read), searchable, offer structurized history (while > >> chat have rather linear and mixed), so all requirements set up by > >> mailing list are met. > >> > >> All of this while providing much more readability (code syntax, > >> formatting), they don't include all the noise from quoted previous > >> messages or signatures (rolling eyes emote), can link issues > >> between each other (with automatic references in issues' > >> timeline), every user can set his own notifications policy (on > >> project level) or subscribe to single issue/PR.. Mailing lists are > >> so raw that in 2020 many people won't use them "just because". > >> > >> As for IIRC - I don't know how many people use it and how many > >> discussions had been taken there, but honestly I doubt that there > >> is as much discussion as would be inapropriate for Github issue. I > >> don't say IIRC should be abandoned completely, people can talk > >> there as much as they want but there shouldn't be taken any > >> serious technical decisions. IIRC should be a place for friendly > >> talk (like Symfony's Slack) and even if some serious discussion is > >> started there, final result should be documented elsewhere. And by > >> "elsewhere" I don't mean mailing list. > >> > >> środa, 16 grudnia 2020 o 17:41:27 UTC+1 and...@heigl.org > >> <http://heigl.org/> napisał(a): > >> > >> Am 16.12.20 um 17:38 schrieb Ben Ramsey: > >> > My $0.02 as one who lurks on the mailing lists: > >> > > >> > Chat programs, whether it be Slack or Discord or Rocket.Chat or > >> > Mattermost or whatever, are inherently bad at transparency, > >> which is > >> > paramount to open source. They’re difficult to search, do > >> not provide an > >> > easy means to browse through the history, and they almost > >> always require > >> > an account to access the history. Mailing lists, on the > >> other hand, > >> > provide search, archival browsing, and all discussions can > >> be made public. > >> > > >> > I think chat is great for ad hoc discussions and meetings, > >> but when it’s > >> > time to make any decisions, everything (including ideas > >> discussed in > >> > chat) needs to move to a medium that can support > >> transparency and > >> > openness. Right now, that’s mailing lists. > >> > >> I second that! > >> > >> And IIRC this has been a discussion on this list several times > >> and so > >> far the result was always to stay with the mailinglist format! > >> > >> Cheers > >> > >> Andreas > >> -- > >> ,,, > >> (o o) > >> > +---------------------------------------------------------ooO-(_)-Ooo-+ > >> | Andreas Heigl | > >> | mailto:and...@heigl.org N 50°22'59.5" E 08°23'58" | > >> | https://andreas.heigl.org <https://andreas.heigl.org/> | > >> > +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ > >> | https://hei.gl/appointmentwithandreas | > >> > +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ > >> > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >> Groups "PHP Framework Interoperability Group" group. > >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > >> send an email to php-fig+u...@googlegroups.com. > >> To view this discussion on the web > >> visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/php-fig/34473daf-758c-435a-a043-47c5bed53c11n%40googlegroups.com > > >> < > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/php-fig/34473daf-758c-435a-a043-47c5bed53c11n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. > > > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups "PHP Framework Interoperability Group" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > > an email to php-fig+u...@googlegroups.com > > <mailto:php-fig+u...@googlegroups.com>. > > To view this discussion on the web visit > > > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/php-fig/1aadebd0-c7c7-4451-ad7e-5403ebee09ccn%40googlegroups.com > > > < > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/php-fig/1aadebd0-c7c7-4451-ad7e-5403ebee09ccn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. > > > > -- > ,,, > (o o) > +---------------------------------------------------------ooO-(_)-Ooo-+ > | Andreas Heigl | > | mailto:and...@heigl.org N 50°22'59.5" E 08°23'58" | > | https://andreas.heigl.org | > +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ > | https://hei.gl/appointmentwithandreas | > +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "PHP Framework Interoperability Group" group. 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