php-general Digest 4 Aug 2002 17:32:16 -0000 Issue 1505
Topics (messages 111045 through 111074):
Re: Protect PHP coding
111045 by: Acer
111046 by: Michael Geier
111047 by: Acer
111049 by: Justin French
111053 by: David Freeman
111054 by: Jason Wong
111058 by: . Edwin
111059 by: Duncan Hill
111063 by: Acer
111064 by: Acer
111065 by: Acer
111066 by: Justin French
111067 by: Zeev Suraski
111068 by: Acer
111070 by: Zeev Suraski
111072 by: Maxim Maletsky
111074 by: Manuel Lemos
which function can do so ?
111048 by: Ryan
111050 by: php . banana
111051 by: Andrew Brampton
111052 by: Justin French
mysql_connect
111055 by: Mantas Kriauciunas
111056 by: Paul Dale
Re: Decode email
111057 by: Paul Roberts
Session problem with https
111060 by: Andre Dubuc
Re: alternative to phpadsnew?
111061 by: Andrey
PHP/MySQL Error Log Parser
111062 by: Paul Maine
Mkdir!
111069 by: Georgie Casey
Upgraded to 4.2.2 on Win2k - server (including ASP) crashing
111071 by: Jack Baty
Re: May i?
111073 by: Manuel
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--- Begin Message ---
this all started when rasmus had a problem with the "click" in my original
post and i think i proved that if you are a member of the php development
you better not stray from what the php gods think or else you will get
hanged in public or even banned or ignored.
then i suggested that zend isn't really doing much to "develop" an encoder
or accelerator since one guy has been able to do the same thing and rasmus
is like of course not silly if microsoft sold their products for what they
cost it would be $0.02.
so fine zend is ripping people off, what's the point? well it has been
damaging to php is my point. no one knows what php is and no one will pay
you to do php. why blame zend on this? no matter what rasmus says that 600
people have access to the cvs, php is zend and zend is php.
after that is when all the little minions started acting tough so that the
cool kids would like them better.
here's the original post that i made, maybe people should reread it:
---
There is a free php accelerator so I don't know why you would pay for one.
www.php-accelerator.co.uk
The same guy (Nick) has also just made an encoder. It is in beta testing
right now and there's no windows version yet but that should be coming soon.
I think it's like $0.50 to encode your program which is much more
affordable.
http://www.php-encoder.com
I think the problem with zend is that they have put up the guise that php is
an opensource project but to actually use it in production you had to pay
several thousands every year for the accelerator and the encoder. It kinda
feels like a bait and switch to me which is why I personally think zend is
bad for php. Just do a search for jobs for asp, cf or jsp. There are a ton
of jobs for these languages and you would be lucky to find one for a php
developer. So zend rakes in the money and does no real marketing with that
money for php is the way I see it.
You'll never hear anything from the core php group since they are a tight
click so it's business as usual. Now that Nick has released the free
accelerator and an inexpensive ($0.50 per shot) encoder it might change but
I don't know if it's too late.
-----Original Message-----
From: Maxim Maletsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: August 4, 2002 1:26 AM
To: 'Acer'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
It hurts no one. Believe me.
Do what. Download PHP package and put it on sale. We'll let you do that
by our license. Actually, yeah, here I go - YOU CAN DO IT RIGHT NOW.
600 people worked hard on PHP for over several years and thousands of
servers do us the real-life test.
Just sell it.
Will we get hurt? Ufff.... whata pain ....
Maxim Maletsky
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Acer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 7:06 AM
> To: César Aracena; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
>
> the truth hurts sometimes.
>
> this was dropped a long time ago but you people keep bringing it up
and
> giving your 2 cents. thanks cesar, you can read my mind.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: César Aracena [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: August 4, 2002 12:59 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
>
>
> I am pretty new to PHP, but not to computing since I've been working
> with them for about 15 years and I would like to say something about
> this idiotic spamming subject.
>
> It's your problem if you get short on cash for buying something you
> could have done by yourself which, by the way, is the beauty of open
> source.
>
> Now, to cut the crap here, which OS do you use at work or even worse,
at
> home? Have you ever bought a computer that comes with any version of
MS
> Windows preinstalled? If you think that buying any kind commercial
> product while having the chance to get the same benefits from an open
> source piece is the right way to go, then do it. If not, just
> unsubscribe yourself from Zend's newsletter and don't ever visit their
> home site. By the way, how much did you pay for the last MS Windows
you
> bought? Or do you use copies? Uhmmm... that's not nice.
>
> I have more than 10.000 e-mails stored in my PHP-General folder which
> are all (or most of them) dedicated to help solving PHP issues for us
> newcomers (by the way, thanks to all). Ok, so maybe some of them are
> about other things such MySQL or HTML, but hey... it's not easy for
> everybody to find the right place to ask for help.
>
> So, to keep it short, please stop messing with other people's ideas
> about how the silicon world should work and start making your own
ones.
> You sound like a very smart person. It's really a shame that not a
> single person from this list will ever give you a job but hey... that
> was your own decision.
>
> Good luck in your life you poor, poor soul.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Acer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 1:20 AM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Justin French'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; php-
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
> >
> > i did drop it and then a whole bunch of you late comers piled in
again
> so
> > why don't you give it up.
> >
> > BTW did i mention the core php group are a click? i'm sure all of
> them
> > are
> > busily emailing each other saying "oh what a jerk, we are doing a
> great
> > job,
> > don't listen to that guy, you guys are the best! keep up the good
> work!"
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Maxim Maletsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: August 4, 2002 12:22 AM
> > To: 'Acer'; 'Justin French'; [EMAIL PROTECTED];
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
> >
> >
> > Acer, I can, we all can, but this is OFF-TOPIC.
> >
> > You are insisting on your ideas on this mailing list. We DO disagree
> > with you, yet, we PREFER to drop this thread off THIS list.
> >
> > Please start looking for a right place and right people and tell
them
> > what you think about Zend, PHP, ASP and JSP.
> >
> > This mailing list discusses general php problems. Zend's pricing is
> not
> > our problem.
> >
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Maxim Maletsky
> >
> > PHP Beginner
> > www.phpbeginner.com
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Acer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 5:57 AM
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Justin French'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; php-
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
> > >
> > > if you can't debate the issues then get out.
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Maxim Maletsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Sent: August 4, 2002 12:00 AM
> > > To: 'Acer'; 'Justin French'; [EMAIL PROTECTED];
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
> > >
> > >
> > > Acer,
> > >
> > > Give it up. We are tired of you.
> > >
> > >
> > > Sincerely,
> > >
> > > Maxim Maletsky
> > >
> > > PHP Beginner
> > > www.phpbeginner.com
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Acer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > > Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 5:40 AM
> > > > To: Justin French; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
> > > >
> > > > okay you say zend gave me php and rasmus says 600 people gave me
> > php.
> > > you
> > > > guys need to get your story right.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Justin French [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > > Sent: August 3, 2002 9:44 PM
> > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > Subject: Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > on 03/08/02 11:57 PM, Manuel Lemos ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >> The people for Zend have to eat to live.
> > > > >
> > > > > And don't we all? That is the main problem. If we need to pay
> USD
> > > $3,000
> > > > > to be able to compile our PHP programs, doesn't that make not
> > viable
> > > for
> > > > > most of us to sell our PHP programs as closed source?
> > > >
> > > > How much money do you make a week writing PHP scripts? Just
> > remember,
> > > > Zend
> > > > gave you PHP, for free, to use in almost any commercial way you
> > wish.
> > > >
> > > > My clients cant afford Zend, but when the right client comes
> along,
> > > it'll
> > > > be
> > > > my recommendation without hesitation.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Justin French
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> > > > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> > > > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> > > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> > > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
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> > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
>
>
> --
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>
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Acer,
Did you ever consider the fact that ASP, JSP and CF jobs are
advertised more because their developers actually advertise? When
was the last time you saw a commerical on TV for PHP? And yet, due
to PHP's extensive development and interoperability, it is one of the
highest installed packages on web servers?
PHB's see the word 'FREE' and think 'baaaad' (obvious sheep
reference) because that is what the Gates' and Ellison's have taught
them to believe. Companies like MS and Oracle advertise during the
Super Bowl and purchase news sites to tell you what they think you
should know.
Do they make a superior product because they advertise? Or just one
that has a prettier ribbon on it? Blaming the PHP developers
(commercial and otherwise) because you cannot get a job as a PHP
developer is like blaming Schwinn because you can't get a job as a
bike messenger.
.m
Quoting Acer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Okay fine whatever. Let's just continue sticking our heads in the
> sand and
> pretend php developers isn't last on the list of jobs available
> compared to
> asp, jsp and cf developers.
>
> That topic isn't important so back to normal and I'll ask a php
> question.
> What's the difference between = and ==? I'm too lazy to read the
> manual.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Maxim Maletsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: August 3, 2002 7:42 PM
> To: 'Acer'; 'Rasmus Lerdorf'
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
>
>
> Acer, what the f****k are you mumbling about?
>
> (sorry for mine to you introduction)
>
> 600 people at PHP Dev Group (and I am one of them too) create and
> document PHP Programming Language for free, because they like it
> this
> way.
>
> You, get your boss's money, buy a Zend's encoder, make a script
> that,
> perhaps, has an equivalent freely available on sourseforge.net,
> encode
> it and stick a it price to then sell the "cat in a lot" to those
> paranoids who do not trust open source projects like your own boss
> does.
>
> The "paranoids" then make services we all here pay, and on our
> spare
> time - we keep developing the free code for you (always, because we
> like
> it this way).
>
> What are you trying to prove by being devil's lawyer here?
>
> We all know how e-business works, most of us are actually on
> managing
> positions if not job consultants.
>
> So, Acer, from now on - ask a php-general question or answer one.
> Deal?
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Maxim Maletsky
>
> PHP Beginner
> www.phpbeginner.com
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Acer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 12:01 AM
> > To: Rasmus Lerdorf
> > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
> >
> > Okay so you support zend but hate encoders. Doesn't zend make
> an
> encoder?
> > To me an encoder is used to sell your product. It doesn't mean
> people
> > still
> > won't release their code to add to the public knowledge.
> >
> > If you didn't release your code rasmus then those 600 people
> won't
> have
> > made
> > php what it is now so you can't have it both ways.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Rasmus Lerdorf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: August 3, 2002 2:06 PM
> > To: Acer
> > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
> >
> >
> > Because it is a silly thread and I shouldn't be replying at
> all.
> Others
> > in the group either have more sense or have given up on
> answering
> > php-general questions.
> >
> > My view on encoders is that they are unnecessary and rather evil.
> I
> would
> > never ever purchase a php-based application that did not come
> with the
> php
> > source code. If you want to restrict your code somehow, do it
> through
> a
> > license. People who choose to violate that license are the
> same
> people
> > who will hack your encoded scripts anyway. And this way the
> honest
> > customers will have the benefit of the code to customize, learn
> from,
> > build on top of. Closed source stuff stifles innovation and I
> personally
> > refuse to work on a PHP encoder for this reason. Imagine if I
> had
> never
> > released the source for PHP? We would not be having this
> discussion
> > today.
> >
> > I know plenty of people disagree with this view, but there you
> have
> it.
> >
> > -Rasmus
> >
> > On Sat, 3 Aug 2002, Acer wrote:
> >
> > > I made that statement because this subject has been brought
> up
> several
> > times
> > > and nothing has been said from the php gods. I mean out of
> this
> whole
> > > thread, your only comment is "That's probably the most
> uninformed
> > statement
> > > I have seen posted to this list in a very long time."
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Rasmus Lerdorf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Sent: August 3, 2002 1:04 PM
> > > To: Acer
> > > Cc: Dennis Moore; Andrey Hristov; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
> > >
> > >
> > > > You'll never hear anything from the core php group since they
> are
> a
> > tight
> > > > click so it's business as usual.
> > >
> > > That's probably the most uninformed statement I have seen
> posted to
> this
> > > list in a very long time.
> > >
> > > -Rasmus
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> > > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
>
>
> --
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>
>
>
>
> --
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>
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Acknowledging the problem is the first step in recovery.
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Geier [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: August 4, 2002 2:22 AM
To: Acer
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
Acer,
Did you ever consider the fact that ASP, JSP and CF jobs are
advertised more because their developers actually advertise? When
was the last time you saw a commerical on TV for PHP? And yet, due
to PHP's extensive development and interoperability, it is one of the
highest installed packages on web servers?
PHB's see the word 'FREE' and think 'baaaad' (obvious sheep
reference) because that is what the Gates' and Ellison's have taught
them to believe. Companies like MS and Oracle advertise during the
Super Bowl and purchase news sites to tell you what they think you
should know.
Do they make a superior product because they advertise? Or just one
that has a prettier ribbon on it? Blaming the PHP developers
(commercial and otherwise) because you cannot get a job as a PHP
developer is like blaming Schwinn because you can't get a job as a
bike messenger.
.m
Quoting Acer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Okay fine whatever. Let's just continue sticking our heads in the
> sand and
> pretend php developers isn't last on the list of jobs available
> compared to
> asp, jsp and cf developers.
>
> That topic isn't important so back to normal and I'll ask a php
> question.
> What's the difference between = and ==? I'm too lazy to read the
> manual.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Maxim Maletsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: August 3, 2002 7:42 PM
> To: 'Acer'; 'Rasmus Lerdorf'
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
>
>
> Acer, what the f****k are you mumbling about?
>
> (sorry for mine to you introduction)
>
> 600 people at PHP Dev Group (and I am one of them too) create and
> document PHP Programming Language for free, because they like it
> this
> way.
>
> You, get your boss's money, buy a Zend's encoder, make a script
> that,
> perhaps, has an equivalent freely available on sourseforge.net,
> encode
> it and stick a it price to then sell the "cat in a lot" to those
> paranoids who do not trust open source projects like your own boss
> does.
>
> The "paranoids" then make services we all here pay, and on our
> spare
> time - we keep developing the free code for you (always, because we
> like
> it this way).
>
> What are you trying to prove by being devil's lawyer here?
>
> We all know how e-business works, most of us are actually on
> managing
> positions if not job consultants.
>
> So, Acer, from now on - ask a php-general question or answer one.
> Deal?
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Maxim Maletsky
>
> PHP Beginner
> www.phpbeginner.com
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Acer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 12:01 AM
> > To: Rasmus Lerdorf
> > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
> >
> > Okay so you support zend but hate encoders. Doesn't zend make
> an
> encoder?
> > To me an encoder is used to sell your product. It doesn't mean
> people
> > still
> > won't release their code to add to the public knowledge.
> >
> > If you didn't release your code rasmus then those 600 people
> won't
> have
> > made
> > php what it is now so you can't have it both ways.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Rasmus Lerdorf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: August 3, 2002 2:06 PM
> > To: Acer
> > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
> >
> >
> > Because it is a silly thread and I shouldn't be replying at
> all.
> Others
> > in the group either have more sense or have given up on
> answering
> > php-general questions.
> >
> > My view on encoders is that they are unnecessary and rather evil.
> I
> would
> > never ever purchase a php-based application that did not come
> with the
> php
> > source code. If you want to restrict your code somehow, do it
> through
> a
> > license. People who choose to violate that license are the
> same
> people
> > who will hack your encoded scripts anyway. And this way the
> honest
> > customers will have the benefit of the code to customize, learn
> from,
> > build on top of. Closed source stuff stifles innovation and I
> personally
> > refuse to work on a PHP encoder for this reason. Imagine if I
> had
> never
> > released the source for PHP? We would not be having this
> discussion
> > today.
> >
> > I know plenty of people disagree with this view, but there you
> have
> it.
> >
> > -Rasmus
> >
> > On Sat, 3 Aug 2002, Acer wrote:
> >
> > > I made that statement because this subject has been brought
> up
> several
> > times
> > > and nothing has been said from the php gods. I mean out of
> this
> whole
> > > thread, your only comment is "That's probably the most
> uninformed
> > statement
> > > I have seen posted to this list in a very long time."
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Rasmus Lerdorf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Sent: August 3, 2002 1:04 PM
> > > To: Acer
> > > Cc: Dennis Moore; Andrey Hristov; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
> > >
> > >
> > > > You'll never hear anything from the core php group since they
> are
> a
> > tight
> > > > click so it's business as usual.
> > >
> > > That's probably the most uninformed statement I have seen
> posted to
> this
> > > list in a very long time.
> > >
> > > -Rasmus
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> > > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
>
>
> --
> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
>
>
>
> --
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> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
on 04/08/02 3:55 PM, Acer ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> so fine zend is ripping people off, what's the point? well it has been
> damaging to php is my point. no one knows what php is and no one will pay
> you to do php. why blame zend on this? no matter what rasmus says that 600
> people have access to the cvs, php is zend and zend is php.
I don't believe Zend's charging for commerical extensions to the product has
harmed it in any way. I also don't believe that Zend is ripping people off.
You have no way of telling if any competitive product does as good a job,
and furthermore, since the *one product you found* is in beta, then the
argument is totally shallow.
Zend is a commercial company, and has the right to charge what *they*
perceive as market value for a product. You have the choice not to buy it,
and you have the choice not to use PHP at all.
There is no way you can blame Zend products for the fact you can't get a PHP
job. I really laughed at this. The primary scripting languages asked for
by job ads in my area are primarily ASP and Java. So what? Java is a
well-established language, which has been around for ages. ASP (and other
microsoft technologies) are backed by the biggest software company in the
world.
PHP has made a massive indentation into the server-side scripting world in
just a few years, and I get emailed about jobs and contracts ALL THE TIME
that want me to use it.
Furthermore, perhaps the reason why you can't get anyone to pay you is (no
insult intended):
- your poor communication skills
- your lack of any real programming experience
- your lack of experience in the right projects / skills
- you're not looking in the right places
- you're only looking at advertised work, not creating a job
None of this is Zend's fault, and switching to ASP, or having Zend give away
the encoder will not fix any of this. You make me laugh.
I'm getting plenty of work.
Justin French
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I know I shouldn't do more to keep this going but I'll make this one,
and only, post.
> this all started when rasmus had a problem with the "click"
> in my original post
>From what I read, Rasmus made a correction to your opinion. You are
entitled to your opinion, but perhaps you should learn that just because
it _is_ your opinion it is neither automatically right nor going to be
accepted by anyone else.
> and i think i proved that if you are a member of the
> php development you better not stray from what the php gods think or
else
> you will get hanged in public or even banned or ignored.
I'm guessing that this is in reference to how you think you've been
treated. As far as I can see, you've not been hanged in public, you've
not been banned and, unfortunately, you've not been ignored either.
I'd also suggest that there's a difference between having a differing
opinion and trying to shove it down everyone elses throat.
> then i suggested that zend isn't really doing much to
> "develop" an encoder or accelerator since one guy has been able to do
the same
> thing
Ummm, I really don't see your point here. Zend is doing what Zend
chooses to do. Last I checked it's, largely, a free world and Zend is a
commercial entity. They have written their particular tools and, by
virtue of the fact that they wrote them they can decide how they want to
market them. That they've decided to give part of it away for free
(Zend engine in PHP) is their choice. I, for one, am glad they did.
That they decided to retain control over another part of it (IDE,
Optimiser etc) and sell that is also their choice. The price they set
for it is also their choice since they created it in the first place.
It is not my place, nor yours for that matter, to criticise Zend for
what they may or may not do in the commercial market place. Why
_should_ Zend do anything in particular to "develop" a php market? So
you can get a job programming in PHP? Why is that their problem?
> and rasmus is like of course not silly if microsoft sold their
products
> for what they cost it would be $0.02.
I'm not even sure what your point is here...
> so fine zend is ripping people off, what's the point?
Are they? Were you forced to buy something from Zend? Was I? It's
your free choice to spend money with Zend. If you don't then they
haven't ripped you off. If you do, one presumes that you have because
you see value in doing so. If _NOBODY_ purchases product from Zend then
they are free to go broke or review their pricing - that's a commercial
reality.
> it has been damaging to php is my point.
Really? Why is Zend to blame for this 'damage' to PHP? Because they
aren't spending money advertising it? How do you know they aren't? I'd
expect that Zend, like every other commercial entity, has an advertising
budget. I'd expect that they spend money advertising themselves and
their products. Are they also expected to spend money promoting php
itself? Why?
> no one knows what php is and no one will pay you to do php.
Really? I've been paid to do php for clients. You point, I believe,
was about number of job listings. I've honestly not looked - and I'm
not in your part of the world anyway. Consider that a lack of job
listings does not necessarily equate to a lack of paid work. Consider
that a good many people earn money programming in PHP. Or are you
bitter because you feel that you've wasted time learning to program in
PHP and now can't get a job? If so, I can only suggest that you get
more skills - the more multi-skilled you are the better your chances of
employment.
Either that or you could apply for jobs that want, for example, ASP and
then sell them on the idea of doing the stuff in php instead. Isn't it
your 'duty' to do this? If you don't aren't you just 'damaging' php?
> no matter what rasmus says that 600 people have access to the
> cvs, php is zend and zend is php.
I neither claim to be an expert on php nor zend but it was my
understanding that zend has contributed a reasonably significant key
component of PHP. Even so, they are not the only source of php
development. Many people contribute. Each of those people have some
say in what happens.
> after that is when all the little minions started acting
> tough so that the cool kids would like them better.
Ummm, ok, whatever...
> here's the original post that i made, maybe people should reread it:
> -------
> There is a free php accelerator so I don't know why you
> would pay for one.
> www.php-accelerator.co.uk
OK, so don't pay for one. I don't see anyone forcing you to pay for
one. It's your choice.
> The same guy (Nick) has also just made an encoder. It is in
> beta testing
> right now and there's no windows version yet but that should
> be coming soon.
> I think it's like $0.50 to encode your program which is much more
> affordable.
> http://www.php-encoder.com
OK, that's cool. Good for Nick.
> I think the problem with zend is that they have put up the
> guise that php is an opensource project but to actually use it in
production
> you had to pay several thousands every year for the accelerator and
the
> encoder.
Umm, Zend hasn't put up the guise that php is opensource. The php
folks, on the other hand, have. Are you contending that php isn't open
source? On what basis?
Why do you need to pay money to use php in production? I'm sure there's
a good many people on this list alone that use php in production and
don't pay for products produced by zend. I'd bet money on some of them
doing very serious web serving without the benefit of zend products.
I'm intrigued by your statement that you can't use php in production
without the accelerator or encoder.
> feels like a bait and switch to me which is why I personally
> think zend is bad for php. Just do a search for jobs for asp, cf or
jsp.
Why is it Zend's job to do anything about this? Why isn't it yours? Or
mine? Or someone elses? Why put the blame on zend?
> There are a ton
> of jobs for these languages and you would be lucky to find
> one for a php developer.
Well, there are a ton of advertised vacancies anyway. That doesn't
always mean that there are actual jobs as anyone who has dealt with head
hunters would know. Even then, so what? Why is this zend's problem?
If you don't like it I'd suggest that you can:
1. learn another language and get a job doing that,
2. learn more languages and be multi-skilled,
3. become a php advocate and convert some of employers to using php
instead
> So zend rakes in the money and does no real
> marketing with that money for php is the way I see it.
And you base this statement on what evidence? Presumably the fact that
you've never seen any advertising for php? Or never seen any
advertising for zend products? How do you know zend is 'raking in the
money' anyway? For all you know it's a group of one or three
programmers struggling to make ends meet (no, I don't know either way,
not that I've ever tried to find out).
> You'll never hear anything from the core php group since
> they are a tight
> click so it's business as usual.
I see posts on this group from members of the php developers group. As
far as I know, you can subscribe to the php developers mailing list(s)
yourself and see what goes on. AFAIK there's nothing stopping you from
doing so. I'd expect that you can't just get write access to cvs just
because you ask but that's not the issue.
> Now that Nick has released the free
> accelerator and an inexpensive ($0.50 per shot) encoder it
> might change but I don't know if it's too late.
Great for Nick (whoever he is). $0.50 isn't necessarily cheap though.
I have one of my own web sites with about 50 php pages on it. That
would be $250 to encode just one website. Ten similar web sites and
you're talking $2500. That's getting up towards what Zend charges isn't
it? I'd suggest that the differences are as much in product marketing
as anything else. One (Zend) is quite clearly for serious developers
with good justification for their tools. The other (Nick's) is for the
smaller operation that has occasional need.
Let's face it though. Serious web development tools cost serious money.
How much is it to buy Photoshop? What about Dreamweaver or Go Live?
What about Flash? Here in Australia pricing on this sort of stuff
starts well over A$500. A decent set of professional web development
tools can cost well into the thousands.
The choices are ultimately yours. Use free software and accept that,
some of the time, it may not do exactly what you want. Accept that some
free software is going to be superior to software that costs much more.
You decide what you're going to spend and what tools you'll have
available to you as a result.
CYA, Dave
OBTW - reply, don't reply, whatever, this is my one and only post on
this thread.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sunday 04 August 2002 15:53, David Freeman wrote:
> > Now that Nick has released the free
> > accelerator and an inexpensive ($0.50 per shot) encoder it
> > might change but I don't know if it's too late.
>
> Great for Nick (whoever he is). $0.50 isn't necessarily cheap though.
> I have one of my own web sites with about 50 php pages on it. That
> would be $250 to encode just one website. Ten similar web sites and
> you're talking $2500. That's getting up towards what Zend charges isn't
> it?
$0.50 x 50 = $25.00
--
Jason Wong -> Gremlins Associates -> www.gremlins.com.hk
Open Source Software Systems Integrators
* Web Design & Hosting * Internet & Intranet Applications Development *
/*
To err is human; to forgive is simply not our policy.
-- MIT Assasination Club
*/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
'Just wanted to make a few comments...
I got my job because of PHP. All of my company's projects were coded in PHP. (Old ones
that were not are soon to be converted.)
Zend? I convinced my boss to buy the encoder--I didn't have to pay for it...
Thanks! Thanks to Zend! Thanks to the PHP community! Thanks to those who made the
manual! Thanks to the (over) 600 as well! Thanks to the mailing lists, etc!
- E
----- $B85$N%a%C%;!<%8(B -----
$BAw?.(B : RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
I know I shouldn't do more to keep this going but I'll make this one,
and only, post.
> this all started when rasmus had a problem with the "click"
> in my original post
>From what I read, Rasmus made a correction to your opinion. You are
entitled to your opinion, but perhaps you should learn that just because
it _is_ your opinion it is neither automatically right nor going to be
accepted by anyone else.
> and i think i proved that if you are a member of the
> php development you better not stray from what the php gods think or
else
> you will get hanged in public or even banned or ignored.
I'm guessing that this is in reference to how you think you've been
treated. As far as I can see, you've not been hanged in public, you've
not been banned and, unfortunately, you've not been ignored either.
I'd also suggest that there's a difference between having a differing
opinion and trying to shove it down everyone elses throat.
> then i suggested that zend isn't really doing much to
> "develop" an encoder or accelerator since one guy has been able to do
the same
> thing
Ummm, I really don't see your point here. Zend is doing what Zend
chooses to do. Last I checked it's, largely, a free world and Zend is a
commercial entity. They have written their particular tools and, by
virtue of the fact that they wrote them they can decide how they want to
market them. That they've decided to give part of it away for free
(Zend engine in PHP) is their choice. I, for one, am glad they did.
That they decided to retain control over another part of it (IDE,
Optimiser etc) and sell that is also their choice. The price they set
for it is also their choice since they created it in the first place.
It is not my place, nor yours for that matter, to criticise Zend for
what they may or may not do in the commercial market place. Why
_should_ Zend do anything in particular to "develop" a php market? So
you can get a job programming in PHP? Why is that their problem?
> and rasmus is like of course not silly if microsoft sold their
products
> for what they cost it would be $0.02.
I'm not even sure what your point is here...
> so fine zend is ripping people off, what's the point?
Are they? Were you forced to buy something from Zend? Was I? It's
your free choice to spend money with Zend. If you don't then they
haven't ripped you off. If you do, one presumes that you have because
you see value in doing so. If _NOBODY_ purchases product from Zend then
they are free to go broke or review their pricing - that's a commercial
reality.
> it has been damaging to php is my point.
Really? Why is Zend to blame for this 'damage' to PHP? Because they
aren't spending money advertising it? How do you know they aren't? I'd
expect that Zend, like every other commercial entity, has an advertising
budget. I'd expect that they spend money advertising themselves and
their products. Are they also expected to spend money promoting php
itself? Why?
> no one knows what php is and no one will pay you to do php.
Really? I've been paid to do php for clients. You point, I believe,
was about number of job listings. I've honestly not looked - and I'm
not in your part of the world anyway. Consider that a lack of job
listings does not necessarily equate to a lack of paid work. Consider
that a good many people earn money programming in PHP. Or are you
bitter because you feel that you've wasted time learning to program in
PHP and now can't get a job? If so, I can only suggest that you get
more skills - the more multi-skilled you are the better your chances of
employment.
Either that or you could apply for jobs that want, for example, ASP and
then sell them on the idea of doing the stuff in php instead. Isn't it
your 'duty' to do this? If you don't aren't you just 'damaging' php?
> no matter what rasmus says that 600 people have access to the
> cvs, php is zend and zend is php.
I neither claim to be an expert on php nor zend but it was my
understanding that zend has contributed a reasonably significant key
component of PHP. Even so, they are not the only source of php
development. Many people contribute. Each of those people have some
say in what happens.
> after that is when all the little minions started acting
> tough so that the cool kids would like them better.
Ummm, ok, whatever...
> here's the original post that i made, maybe people should reread it:
> -------
> There is a free php accelerator so I don't know why you
> would pay for one.
> www.php-accelerator.co.uk
OK, so don't pay for one. I don't see anyone forcing you to pay for
one. It's your choice.
> The same guy (Nick) has also just made an encoder. It is in
> beta testing
> right now and there's no windows version yet but that should
> be coming soon.
> I think it's like $0.50 to encode your program which is much more
> affordable.
> http://www.php-encoder.com
OK, that's cool. Good for Nick.
> I think the problem with zend is that they have put up the
> guise that php is an opensource project but to actually use it in
production
> you had to pay several thousands every year for the accelerator and
the
> encoder.
Umm, Zend hasn't put up the guise that php is opensource. The php
folks, on the other hand, have. Are you contending that php isn't open
source? On what basis?
Why do you need to pay money to use php in production? I'm sure there's
a good many people on this list alone that use php in production and
don't pay for products produced by zend. I'd bet money on some of them
doing very serious web serving without the benefit of zend products.
I'm intrigued by your statement that you can't use php in production
without the accelerator or encoder.
> feels like a bait and switch to me which is why I personally
> think zend is bad for php. Just do a search for jobs for asp, cf or
jsp.
Why is it Zend's job to do anything about this? Why isn't it yours? Or
mine? Or someone elses? Why put the blame on zend?
> There are a ton
> of jobs for these languages and you would be lucky to find
> one for a php developer.
Well, there are a ton of advertised vacancies anyway. That doesn't
always mean that there are actual jobs as anyone who has dealt with head
hunters would know. Even then, so what? Why is this zend's problem?
If you don't like it I'd suggest that you can:
1. learn another language and get a job doing that,
2. learn more languages and be multi-skilled,
3. become a php advocate and convert some of employers to using php
instead
> So zend rakes in the money and does no real
> marketing with that money for php is the way I see it.
And you base this statement on what evidence? Presumably the fact that
you've never seen any advertising for php? Or never seen any
advertising for zend products? How do you know zend is 'raking in the
money' anyway? For all you know it's a group of one or three
programmers struggling to make ends meet (no, I don't know either way,
not that I've ever tried to find out).
> You'll never hear anything from the core php group since
> they are a tight
> click so it's business as usual.
I see posts on this group from members of the php developers group. As
far as I know, you can subscribe to the php developers mailing list(s)
yourself and see what goes on. AFAIK there's nothing stopping you from
doing so. I'd expect that you can't just get write access to cvs just
because you ask but that's not the issue.
> Now that Nick has released the free
> accelerator and an inexpensive ($0.50 per shot) encoder it
> might change but I don't know if it's too late.
Great for Nick (whoever he is). $0.50 isn't necessarily cheap though.
I have one of my own web sites with about 50 php pages on it. That
would be $250 to encode just one website. Ten similar web sites and
you're talking $2500. That's getting up towards what Zend charges isn't
it? I'd suggest that the differences are as much in product marketing
as anything else. One (Zend) is quite clearly for serious developers
with good justification for their tools. The other (Nick's) is for the
smaller operation that has occasional need.
Let's face it though. Serious web development tools cost serious money.
How much is it to buy Photoshop? What about Dreamweaver or Go Live?
What about Flash? Here in Australia pricing on this sort of stuff
starts well over A$500. A decent set of professional web development
tools can cost well into the thousands.
The choices are ultimately yours. Use free software and accept that,
some of the time, it may not do exactly what you want. Accept that some
free software is going to be superior to software that costs much more.
You decide what you're going to spend and what tools you'll have
available to you as a result.
CYA, Dave
OBTW - reply, don't reply, whatever, this is my one and only post on
this thread.
--
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, visit:
http://www.php.net/unsub.php$B%$%s%?!<%M%C%H$r$b$C$H8-$/MxMQ$7$?$$$J$i(B MSN
Explorer$B!#L5NA%@%&%s%m!<%I$O$3$3$r%/%j%C%/(B $B"*(B http://explorer.msn.co.jp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, 4 Aug 2002, Acer wrote:
> Acknowledging the problem is the first step in recovery.
*plonk*
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
First I don't know who Nick is, never meet him and just stumbled onto his
project. He created phpa (http://www.php-accelerator.co.uk) and is used by
yahoo. He has built the encoder (http://www.php-encoder.com) from his
experience in phpa so it being in beta or not is up to you to evaluate.
Now a correction. The minimum is $0.50 to encode. Obviously it wouldn't
make sense to encode per file since you could just put all your scripts in
one file so the encoding is based on the complete source size. As an
example (this is on his site), all of squirrelmail would of cost $25 to
encode and then you could sell as many times you want.
Now why would you encode? Rasmus thinks it's evil but I'm sure some of us
have been stiffed on projects. So it's a good protection since it allows
you to put into your program a check that the domain name is registered for
use by you. Something like:
if (domain_name is in my database_registration)
{
let them use the admin page
}
else
{
they get locked out
}
You can obviously add that into your programs now but by encoding your
program then no one can hunt it down in your source and erase it since it's
encoded. This is why I don't think encoders are evil (be it zend or
php-encoder) and just because you encode your project doesn't mean people
won't share their knowledge.
-----Original Message-----
From: Jason Wong [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: August 4, 2002 5:19 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
On Sunday 04 August 2002 15:53, David Freeman wrote:
> > Now that Nick has released the free
> > accelerator and an inexpensive ($0.50 per shot) encoder it
> > might change but I don't know if it's too late.
>
> Great for Nick (whoever he is). $0.50 isn't necessarily cheap though.
> I have one of my own web sites with about 50 php pages on it. That
> would be $250 to encode just one website. Ten similar web sites and
> you're talking $2500. That's getting up towards what Zend charges isn't
> it?
$0.50 x 50 = $25.00
--
Jason Wong -> Gremlins Associates -> www.gremlins.com.hk
Open Source Software Systems Integrators
* Web Design & Hosting * Internet & Intranet Applications Development *
/*
To err is human; to forgive is simply not our policy.
-- MIT Assasination Club
*/
--
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Okay let me clarify, I think that if Zend did not exist then php would be in
a better position. Why? Because something like php-encoder would of filled
the void sooner and everyone would of benefited from encoders and
accelerators.
So far it really does feel like a bait and switch act since people develop
in php thinking it's opensource and then when it's not performing up to par
someone waves a flag to say "Hey you could give me several thousand dollars
and I'll make it work"
Wow Justin gets a lot of job offers so that means there are a ton of jobs
for php developers. I feel better now. And thanks for reading my mind,
there's like 3 of you on this list. Do you do partys?
-----Original Message-----
From: Justin French [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: August 4, 2002 3:09 AM
To: Acer; php
Subject: Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
on 04/08/02 3:55 PM, Acer ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> so fine zend is ripping people off, what's the point? well it has been
> damaging to php is my point. no one knows what php is and no one will pay
> you to do php. why blame zend on this? no matter what rasmus says that
600
> people have access to the cvs, php is zend and zend is php.
I don't believe Zend's charging for commerical extensions to the product has
harmed it in any way. I also don't believe that Zend is ripping people off.
You have no way of telling if any competitive product does as good a job,
and furthermore, since the *one product you found* is in beta, then the
argument is totally shallow.
Zend is a commercial company, and has the right to charge what *they*
perceive as market value for a product. You have the choice not to buy it,
and you have the choice not to use PHP at all.
There is no way you can blame Zend products for the fact you can't get a PHP
job. I really laughed at this. The primary scripting languages asked for
by job ads in my area are primarily ASP and Java. So what? Java is a
well-established language, which has been around for ages. ASP (and other
microsoft technologies) are backed by the biggest software company in the
world.
PHP has made a massive indentation into the server-side scripting world in
just a few years, and I get emailed about jobs and contracts ALL THE TIME
that want me to use it.
Furthermore, perhaps the reason why you can't get anyone to pay you is (no
insult intended):
- your poor communication skills
- your lack of any real programming experience
- your lack of experience in the right projects / skills
- you're not looking in the right places
- you're only looking at advertised work, not creating a job
None of this is Zend's fault, and switching to ASP, or having Zend give away
the encoder will not fix any of this. You make me laugh.
I'm getting plenty of work.
Justin French
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No we shouldn't criticise a commerical company because I never hear bad
things about Microsoft on here.
-----Original Message-----
From: David Freeman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: August 4, 2002 3:54 AM
To: 'Acer'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
I know I shouldn't do more to keep this going but I'll make this one,
and only, post.
> this all started when rasmus had a problem with the "click"
> in my original post
>From what I read, Rasmus made a correction to your opinion. You are
entitled to your opinion, but perhaps you should learn that just because
it _is_ your opinion it is neither automatically right nor going to be
accepted by anyone else.
> and i think i proved that if you are a member of the
> php development you better not stray from what the php gods think or
else
> you will get hanged in public or even banned or ignored.
I'm guessing that this is in reference to how you think you've been
treated. As far as I can see, you've not been hanged in public, you've
not been banned and, unfortunately, you've not been ignored either.
I'd also suggest that there's a difference between having a differing
opinion and trying to shove it down everyone elses throat.
> then i suggested that zend isn't really doing much to
> "develop" an encoder or accelerator since one guy has been able to do
the same
> thing
Ummm, I really don't see your point here. Zend is doing what Zend
chooses to do. Last I checked it's, largely, a free world and Zend is a
commercial entity. They have written their particular tools and, by
virtue of the fact that they wrote them they can decide how they want to
market them. That they've decided to give part of it away for free
(Zend engine in PHP) is their choice. I, for one, am glad they did.
That they decided to retain control over another part of it (IDE,
Optimiser etc) and sell that is also their choice. The price they set
for it is also their choice since they created it in the first place.
It is not my place, nor yours for that matter, to criticise Zend for
what they may or may not do in the commercial market place. Why
_should_ Zend do anything in particular to "develop" a php market? So
you can get a job programming in PHP? Why is that their problem?
> and rasmus is like of course not silly if microsoft sold their
products
> for what they cost it would be $0.02.
I'm not even sure what your point is here...
> so fine zend is ripping people off, what's the point?
Are they? Were you forced to buy something from Zend? Was I? It's
your free choice to spend money with Zend. If you don't then they
haven't ripped you off. If you do, one presumes that you have because
you see value in doing so. If _NOBODY_ purchases product from Zend then
they are free to go broke or review their pricing - that's a commercial
reality.
> it has been damaging to php is my point.
Really? Why is Zend to blame for this 'damage' to PHP? Because they
aren't spending money advertising it? How do you know they aren't? I'd
expect that Zend, like every other commercial entity, has an advertising
budget. I'd expect that they spend money advertising themselves and
their products. Are they also expected to spend money promoting php
itself? Why?
> no one knows what php is and no one will pay you to do php.
Really? I've been paid to do php for clients. You point, I believe,
was about number of job listings. I've honestly not looked - and I'm
not in your part of the world anyway. Consider that a lack of job
listings does not necessarily equate to a lack of paid work. Consider
that a good many people earn money programming in PHP. Or are you
bitter because you feel that you've wasted time learning to program in
PHP and now can't get a job? If so, I can only suggest that you get
more skills - the more multi-skilled you are the better your chances of
employment.
Either that or you could apply for jobs that want, for example, ASP and
then sell them on the idea of doing the stuff in php instead. Isn't it
your 'duty' to do this? If you don't aren't you just 'damaging' php?
> no matter what rasmus says that 600 people have access to the
> cvs, php is zend and zend is php.
I neither claim to be an expert on php nor zend but it was my
understanding that zend has contributed a reasonably significant key
component of PHP. Even so, they are not the only source of php
development. Many people contribute. Each of those people have some
say in what happens.
> after that is when all the little minions started acting
> tough so that the cool kids would like them better.
Ummm, ok, whatever...
> here's the original post that i made, maybe people should reread it:
> -------
> There is a free php accelerator so I don't know why you
> would pay for one.
> www.php-accelerator.co.uk
OK, so don't pay for one. I don't see anyone forcing you to pay for
one. It's your choice.
> The same guy (Nick) has also just made an encoder. It is in
> beta testing
> right now and there's no windows version yet but that should
> be coming soon.
> I think it's like $0.50 to encode your program which is much more
> affordable.
> http://www.php-encoder.com
OK, that's cool. Good for Nick.
> I think the problem with zend is that they have put up the
> guise that php is an opensource project but to actually use it in
production
> you had to pay several thousands every year for the accelerator and
the
> encoder.
Umm, Zend hasn't put up the guise that php is opensource. The php
folks, on the other hand, have. Are you contending that php isn't open
source? On what basis?
Why do you need to pay money to use php in production? I'm sure there's
a good many people on this list alone that use php in production and
don't pay for products produced by zend. I'd bet money on some of them
doing very serious web serving without the benefit of zend products.
I'm intrigued by your statement that you can't use php in production
without the accelerator or encoder.
> feels like a bait and switch to me which is why I personally
> think zend is bad for php. Just do a search for jobs for asp, cf or
jsp.
Why is it Zend's job to do anything about this? Why isn't it yours? Or
mine? Or someone elses? Why put the blame on zend?
> There are a ton
> of jobs for these languages and you would be lucky to find
> one for a php developer.
Well, there are a ton of advertised vacancies anyway. That doesn't
always mean that there are actual jobs as anyone who has dealt with head
hunters would know. Even then, so what? Why is this zend's problem?
If you don't like it I'd suggest that you can:
1. learn another language and get a job doing that,
2. learn more languages and be multi-skilled,
3. become a php advocate and convert some of employers to using php
instead
> So zend rakes in the money and does no real
> marketing with that money for php is the way I see it.
And you base this statement on what evidence? Presumably the fact that
you've never seen any advertising for php? Or never seen any
advertising for zend products? How do you know zend is 'raking in the
money' anyway? For all you know it's a group of one or three
programmers struggling to make ends meet (no, I don't know either way,
not that I've ever tried to find out).
> You'll never hear anything from the core php group since
> they are a tight
> click so it's business as usual.
I see posts on this group from members of the php developers group. As
far as I know, you can subscribe to the php developers mailing list(s)
yourself and see what goes on. AFAIK there's nothing stopping you from
doing so. I'd expect that you can't just get write access to cvs just
because you ask but that's not the issue.
> Now that Nick has released the free
> accelerator and an inexpensive ($0.50 per shot) encoder it
> might change but I don't know if it's too late.
Great for Nick (whoever he is). $0.50 isn't necessarily cheap though.
I have one of my own web sites with about 50 php pages on it. That
would be $250 to encode just one website. Ten similar web sites and
you're talking $2500. That's getting up towards what Zend charges isn't
it? I'd suggest that the differences are as much in product marketing
as anything else. One (Zend) is quite clearly for serious developers
with good justification for their tools. The other (Nick's) is for the
smaller operation that has occasional need.
Let's face it though. Serious web development tools cost serious money.
How much is it to buy Photoshop? What about Dreamweaver or Go Live?
What about Flash? Here in Australia pricing on this sort of stuff
starts well over A$500. A decent set of professional web development
tools can cost well into the thousands.
The choices are ultimately yours. Use free software and accept that,
some of the time, it may not do exactly what you want. Accept that some
free software is going to be superior to software that costs much more.
You decide what you're going to spend and what tools you'll have
available to you as a result.
CYA, Dave
OBTW - reply, don't reply, whatever, this is my one and only post on
this thread.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
on 04/08/02 11:45 PM, Acer ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> Okay let me clarify, I think that if Zend did not exist then php would be in
> a better position. Why? Because something like php-encoder would of filled
> the void sooner and everyone would of benefited from encoders and
> accelerators.
Well, there ya go -- php-encoder is here now, so quit complaining about the
price of Zend already. Sheeesh.
> So far it really does feel like a bait and switch act since people develop
> in php thinking it's opensource and then when it's not performing up to par
> someone waves a flag to say "Hey you could give me several thousand dollars
> and I'll make it work"
PHP works, right out of the box. You don't NEED to have things encoded to
make them work, and you don't NEED to have things accelerated -- at least
not in 90% of the websites out there.
Zend is a commercial company (with some ties to the PHP development team)
offering a few commercial extensions to PHP.
You have the choice of accepting the offered price, chosing a competitors
product, or writing your own. PHP does not force or imply the use of Zend
products, or restrict the availability of competing products (like
php-encoder).
If YOU don't want to use Zend, fine... I don't either.
If YOU don't think Zend have a good business model or will sell enough
encoders at the "high price", fine.
If YOU want to use something else, or even write a competing product,
fine... no one is stopping you.
What are you actually complaining about? You're on your high-horse about
opensource and all that, then you turn around and want to be able to encode
your own product (written in PHP) to sell it for profit?
Why are YOU allowed to make a profit out of PHP code and related products,
but Zend are not? You are a commercial entity, and so are they. They chose
to write and sell an encoder, accelerator, and other stuff, just as this
other guy has, and you could.
For f**k's sake just quit bitching about it to us.
> Wow Justin gets a lot of job offers so that means there are a ton of jobs
> for php developers. I feel better now. And thanks for reading my mind,
> there's like 3 of you on this list. Do you do partys?
Yup. I have no idea WTF you're saying here, but it sounds pretty immature,
so I'll just say "grow up"...
Justin French
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just a couple of facts:
1. If Zend did not exist, PHP 4 wouldn't have existed, at least not in any
way similar to what PHP 4 looks like today. FYI, with PHP 3, it was
impossible to write accelerators, encoders, debuggers and whatnot.
2. Zend published its value-add software *2 years* ago, when it was really
innovative. The fact some of its key products were since copied by the
freeware community doesn't mean that they would have existed in the first
place.
An opinion:
Like others pointed out, your assertion that in order to use PHP in a
production environment you HAVE to have an encoder or an accelerator is
ridiculous. If I gave you a set of patches that doubles the speed of PHP,
but offer a commercial product that quadruples it, you'd still be pissed
and say that you HAVE to pay in order to use PHP in a production
environment, wouldn't you?
And finally, another fact:
There are 3 million PHP based web sites in the world. Only a fragment of
them use accelerators or encoders, and you know something? They're doing
pretty darn well.
Zeev
At 16:45 04/08/2002, Acer wrote:
>Okay let me clarify, I think that if Zend did not exist then php would be in
>a better position. Why? Because something like php-encoder would of filled
>the void sooner and everyone would of benefited from encoders and
>accelerators.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Okay like I said before, Zeev is agreeing with me that php is zend and zend
is php. However, if zend dropped off the face of the planet, there would be
programmers to fill that void.
Again call me a cynic but zend develops php but if you pay them several
thousand then it will run 4 times faster. Wow that's great. So let's not
put that much effort into php and make it run faster if you pay. No
conflict of interest there.
Wow 3 million sites, that's a lot. How many of those actually get more then
1000 visitors?
-----Original Message-----
From: Zeev Suraski [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: August 4, 2002 10:55 AM
To: Acer
Cc: Justin French; php
Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
Just a couple of facts:
1. If Zend did not exist, PHP 4 wouldn't have existed, at least not in any
way similar to what PHP 4 looks like today. FYI, with PHP 3, it was
impossible to write accelerators, encoders, debuggers and whatnot.
2. Zend published its value-add software *2 years* ago, when it was really
innovative. The fact some of its key products were since copied by the
freeware community doesn't mean that they would have existed in the first
place.
An opinion:
Like others pointed out, your assertion that in order to use PHP in a
production environment you HAVE to have an encoder or an accelerator is
ridiculous. If I gave you a set of patches that doubles the speed of PHP,
but offer a commercial product that quadruples it, you'd still be pissed
and say that you HAVE to pay in order to use PHP in a production
environment, wouldn't you?
And finally, another fact:
There are 3 million PHP based web sites in the world. Only a fragment of
them use accelerators or encoders, and you know something? They're doing
pretty darn well.
Zeev
At 16:45 04/08/2002, Acer wrote:
>Okay let me clarify, I think that if Zend did not exist then php would be
in
>a better position. Why? Because something like php-encoder would of
filled
>the void sooner and everyone would of benefited from encoders and
>accelerators.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 18:12 04/08/2002, Acer wrote:
>Okay like I said before, Zeev is agreeing with me that php is zend and zend
>is php. However, if zend dropped off the face of the planet, there would be
>programmers to fill that void.
No, I am not. Zend was a key figure in the development of PHP, without
which PHP wouldn't have been what it is today. Arguably, PHP would have
not existed at all. Today, Zend continues to take a key role in the
development of PHP's infrastructure, which is then used by a dozen or so
developers who actually develop PHP itself, which in turn is used by those
600 people with CVS accounts that Rasmus mentioned, that help out in the
manual, PEAR, and other projects. Will there be someone to replace Andi's
work on the engine if he fell off the planet? I hope we don't live to see
it for ourselves, because I don't think you would have liked the result.
Also, don't put words in my mouth. I'm the first person to say that PHP !=
Zend, PHP is PHP and Zend is Zend.
>Again call me a cynic but zend develops php but if you pay them several
>thousand then it will run 4 times faster. Wow that's great. So let's not
>put that much effort into php and make it run faster if you pay. No
>conflict of interest there.
I guess that's why Zend people constantly improved the performance of PHP.
>Wow 3 million sites, that's a lot. How many of those actually get more then
>1000 visitors?
Just one, yours. Poor chap.
Zeev
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> No we shouldn't criticise a commerical company because I never hear
bad
> things about Microsoft on here.
Read archives.... :-)
Maxim Maletsky
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello,
On 08/03/2002 01:58 PM, Acer wrote:
> There is a free php accelerator so I don't know why you would pay for one.
> www.php-accelerator.co.uk
>
> The same guy (Nick) has also just made an encoder. It is in beta testing
> right now and there's no windows version yet but that should be coming soon.
> I think it's like $0.50 to encode your program which is much more
> affordable.
> http://www.php-encoder.com
You can also use APC cache extension in MMAP mode and when you run each
script for the first time it stores the compiled files on disk. From
then on you can delete the original sources as they are no longer
needed. There is no need to pay for that. I alaways recommend APC to
protect the source code to anybody because you do not even have to
change any part of source code to use it. APC is available here:
http://apc.communityconnect.com/
BCompiler is a new PECL extension that is based on APC and you can
download it for free here:
http://pear.php.net/package-info.php?pacid=95
So, there is really no need to pay at all.
> I think the problem with zend is that they have put up the guise that php is
> an opensource project but to actually use it in production you had to pay
> several thousands every year for the accelerator and the encoder. It kinda
You probably have no idea how right you are! :)
Did you know that APC cache extension was developed because Zend wanted
to charge a fortune to license Zend Cache to be used in a large cluster,
but the company that has the cluster was not willing to pay that much?
The funny part is that Zend CEO was so greedy that he refused to make a
significant discount. Of course the company with the cluster refused to
pay the absurd ammount of money that Zend charged. So, it seems that
Zend CEO was so brilliant that challenged them to develop a Cache
extension for free, and guess what, they did? hehehehehehehheheh
Not only Zend people is greed as they seem so arrogant that they really
think nobody can have developed the things they did. They probably think
they are gods! Some customers probably believe that so they pay the
fabulous fortunes that they charge!
Anyway, if it was my company, I would have certainly fired that CEO for
challenging somebody to develop a competing product, even more for free.
> feels like a bait and switch to me which is why I personally think zend is
> bad for php. Just do a search for jobs for asp, cf or jsp. There are a ton
> of jobs for these languages and you would be lucky to find one for a php
> developer. So zend rakes in the money and does no real marketing with that
> money for php is the way I see it.
Yes, I completely agree with you. Zend was good for having developed
Zend engine but at the same time they cripple further development by not
allowing Open Source cache/encoding extensions to be included in PHP.
Once APC author publicly offered to integrate APC extension in PHP and
the only response that he got was a stupid excuse from Zeev to not do it.
> You'll never hear anything from the core php group since they are a tight
> click so it's business as usual. Now that Nick has released the free
> accelerator and an inexpensive ($0.50 per shot) encoder it might change but
> I don't know if it's too late.
You are also very right when you claim that other core developers have
admited that by passively allowing Zend people to boycott the addition
of an Open Source cache extension that can also be used for encoding
scripts.
Only them can explain the real reasons, but active or passively they are
favouring Zend business, thus crippling further PHP development.
As for Nick encoder I also agree that is probably too late for him to
make money because there are free encoding extensions and like his they
are not built-in PHP.
Anyway, once Nick told me that he would not mind integrating his
cache/encoding extension into PHP if the PHP developers (read Zend
people) were not blocking it.
He also told me about the interest to develop a PHP to C compiler which
is way better than Zend Encoder because that would be really hard, if
viable at all to reverse engineer. That would make PHP match other
languages offer of real compilers either in protection terms and speed.
--
Regards,
Manuel Lemos
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am exactly a beginner of php. This question may be easy.
I have a php program which want to achieve the url from browser.
e.g. webmail.xxx.com
then how the index.php is able to know it is xxx.com ??
which function in php can do so??
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
you mean redirect?
header("Location: www.stuff.com");
make sure it goes before any output to screen or html tags or it won't
work,
>I am exactly a beginner of php. This question may be easy.
>I have a php program which want to achieve the url from browser.
>e.g. webmail.xxx.com
>
>then how the index.php is able to know it is xxx.com ??
>which function in php can do so??
>
>
>--
>PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
>To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
________________________--__-______-______________
eat pasta
type fasta
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I read his question as wanting to know how to figure out the URL of his
site, use the varible $_SERVER['HTTP_HOST'] or $HTTP_HOST on old PHP
versions, that will return the full domain, from the www. to the .com so you
may want to do some spliting of that varible to figure out what just the bit
in the middle is... If you need help doing that just post again :)
Andrew
----- Original Message -----
From: "php @ banana" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "PHP-GENERAL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 8:19 AM
Subject: Re: [PHP] which function can do so ?
> you mean redirect?
>
> header("Location: www.stuff.com");
>
> make sure it goes before any output to screen or html tags or it won't
> work,
>
>
> >I am exactly a beginner of php. This question may be easy.
> >I have a php program which want to achieve the url from browser.
> >e.g. webmail.xxx.com
> >
> >then how the index.php is able to know it is xxx.com ??
> >which function in php can do so??
> >
> >
> >--
> >PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> >To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
> >
>
>
> ________________________--__-______-______________
> eat pasta
> type fasta
>
>
> --
> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Have a look at the predefined variables in PHP... particularly the $_SERVER
array.
http://www.php.net/manual/en/reserved.variables.php#reserved.variables.serve
r
I think you'll want $_SERVER['HTTP_HOST'], but it will depend on your PHP
version, server environment, etc etc.
Justin French
on 04/08/02 5:11 PM, Ryan ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> I am exactly a beginner of php. This question may be easy.
> I have a php program which want to achieve the url from browser.
> e.g. webmail.xxx.com
>
> then how the index.php is able to know it is xxx.com ??
> which function in php can do so??
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey php-general,
$db_host = "localhost";
how do i set with ip ?
it works with localhost
but it doesn't work:
$db_host = "IP.IP.IP.IP";
or
$db_host = "Http://IP.IP.IP.IP/";;
P.S IP i set numbers
P.S.S i need to connet to mysql on other server
thanks, sorry for dumb question....just can't find answer
--
Best regards,
Mantas
Contacts:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is probably a mysql permissions issue not a php issue.
If you have admin rights on that database
GRANT ALL PRIVILEGES ON DATABASE_NAME.* TO
USER_TO_ALLOW_CONNECTIONS_BY@HOST_TO_ALLOW_CONNECTIONS_FROM;
(Where DATABASE_NAME is the mysql database to allow connections to, as in
"use database <x> in mysql")
followed by
FLUSH PRIVILEDGES;
in mysql as root.
Feel free to contact me offlist in the next few hours if you need help
determining if this is indeed the issue.
be well,
...paul
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mantas Kriauciunas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 5:29 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [PHP] mysql_connect
>
>
> Hey php-general,
>
> $db_host = "localhost";
>
> how do i set with ip ?
>
> it works with localhost
>
> but it doesn't work:
>
> $db_host = "IP.IP.IP.IP";
>
> or
>
> $db_host = "Http://IP.IP.IP.IP/";;
>
> P.S IP i set numbers
>
> P.S.S i need to connet to mysql on other server
>
> thanks, sorry for dumb question....just can't find answer
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Mantas
>
> Contacts:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> --
> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
the imap function will do this.
http://za2.php.net/manual/en/ref.imap.php
Paul Roberts
http://www.paul-roberts.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
++++++++++++++++++++++++
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 1:06 AM
Subject: [PHP] Decode email
> Hi
>
> Anyone know a good email decoder (function or class) that can split the
> any email to subject, from, to , body and attachments ?
>
>
> Thank You
>
> _______________________
> http://www.SaudiABM.com
> _______________________
> About Islam :
> http://home2.swipnet.se/~w-20479/Audio.htm
> http://sultan.org
> _______________________
>
>
> --
> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've followed the threads on sessions, and discovered, to my horror, that I
was passing the session id through cookies. Attempting to repair this
'problem' has been fun (with 200+ files).
Somehow, the session variables are not passing through once they encounter an
https page. I'm using the following for passing the session id:
<form action="desired.php?<?=SID?>" method="post">
<?php header("location: desired.php?".sid); ?>
These work for ordinary http, but for https, it gives array(). Each page
starts with <?php session_start(); ob_start(): ?>.
I have set globals=off, session.use_trans_sid=1 (so I shouldn't need to use
<?=SID?> above, but I don't know what to use instead??), and
session.use_cookies=0 in my php.ini.
In only one https page, when it loads gives me PHPSESSIONID
anen3n1nn......., but still does not let me access the variables that should
be within that session. I'm totally at a loss what is happening here. Can
anyone shed some light on how to retrieve the session variables for an https
page?
Any help or where to look (beyond the php.net pages where I learned about
sessions), would be greatly appreciated.
Tia,
Andre
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
O.A.S.I.S
the fastest of all.
Look for it omn sourceforge.net
With OASIS you can deliver up to 500,000 views per hour. PHP/Mysql based.
Regards,
Andrey
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Andy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 4:44 PM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: [PHP] alternative to phpadsnew?
> >
> > Hi there,
> >
> > I am searching for a way to track advertisment, clickrates on my site.
> > So I
> > tryed out phpadsnew http://sourceforge.net/projects/phpadsnew/
> >
> > Unfortunatelly the current beta 7 works only with register globals set
> > to
> > on. I cant install it in this case, because my application requires this
> > to
> > be off.
> >
> > Has anybody a good recomendation on another software to track adds?
> >
> > Thank you for any hint on that.
> >
> > andy
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How can I set up MySQL error logging? Is there any PHP MySQL error log
parsers?
Thank You
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When I create directories in PHP through the mkdir() command, what number
should I set the mode so I have the priveleges to delete the directory
through FTP? I used to always set them to 777 but then when I try to delete
the directories in FTP, it doesnt let me, and I have to write a PHP script
that deletes the folders!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I upgraded from 4.1.1 to 4.2.2 on Win2000 running IIS. I immediately starting
having problems with IIS hanging after a few requests. I tried all sorts of
nonsense and its only got worse. In desperation, I copied all of the dll's in
the php distribution into /winnt/system32, overwriting the existing files.
Now I've got php running fine, but as soon as any *php* page is accessed, ASP
pages stop responding. Actually, they do respond with this: -2147417842
(0x8001010e).
Restarting IIS clears it up until the next php page loads. Any ideas? The ASP
folks developing on the server are getting (understandably) irritable.
--
Jack Baty
Fusionary Media - http://www.fusionary.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You can reset the id with this command:
ALTER TABLE $tablename AUTO_INCREMENT = 242
: : Flavio Bastos Amiel: : : : : : INVALID_ADDRESS_IN_GROUP@.SYNTAX-ERROR.;;;;;;;;,
:"::: Flavio Bastos Amiel::::::>" wrote:let's see if i can do it...
i got a news site..... everything was going OK....sometimes i made few
testing and then i delete the content from the db... the problem is next:
the item "id" is an auto_increment element .. so the id's wasn't going
allright....because they where not true... sometimes they make jumps like id
#25 and the id #30 (because of the testing i've done and then delete)
i tried to delete that cell (id) and then i recreate it. thinking the id was
going to count it all over and make the item id TRUE.....but it wasn't like
that, the "new" id was counting since the last id then if the last id was
100, the new id was counting from 100 to 200 .... do i explain myself?...
does anyone have an answer to this problem (PLEASE Dont tell me i have to do
i manually!! )
thanks,
Flavio Bastos Amiel
"George Nicolae" wrote in message
[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> ask.
>
> --
>
>
> Best regards,
> George Nicolae
> IT Manager
> ___________________
> PaginiWeb.com - Professional Web Design
> www.PaginiWeb.com
>
>
> "::: Flavio Bastos Amiel::::::>" wrote in message
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > May i ask for help about a subejct on MySQL here?
> >
> > thanks,
> > Flavio Bastos Amiel
> >
> >
>
>
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