Hi,

I'm sorry for late reaction, a bit busy with other things, not reading
pkg-discuss too much.

V čt, 26. 06. 2008 v 17:46, Kohsuke Kawaguchi píše:
> Milan Jurik wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > Kohsuke Kawaguchi p????e v st 25. 06. 2008 v 18:54 -0700:
> >> Jyri Virkki wrote:
> >> > Stephen Hahn wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> 
> >> >>   So, to answer these questions, the model David and I have been toying
> >> >>   with is a "contrib" repository, with the largest component being
> >> >>   binary packages from the recipes in the spec-files-extra or the F/OSS
> >> >>   package base projects
> >> > [...]
> >> > 
> >> >>   3.  Either send us the URL to your private depot (running in readonly
> >> >>       mode if public!), or use pkgrecv and GNU tar to collect your    
> >> >>       package in transaction form--and send us a URL to that file.      
> >> > 
> >> > Having anyone and everyone contribute pre-built binary packages is a
> >> > bad idea. It's ok for testing/experimenting but not for formally
> >> > published packages.
> >> > 
> >> > Published packages need to be built on a known-standardized (on the
> >> > lowest common denominator supported) Release Engineering machine for
> >> > them to reliably be useful for everyone else.  
> >> 
> >> All the major distros seem to agree on this view, but this does increase 
> >> the bar. For example, our Java projects (like GlassFish) always have 
> >> very hard time getting into the Ubuntu repository because the Java 
> >> projects build very differently. This pain shall not be under-estimated.
> >> 
> > 
> > So is support missing in build tools (provided by automated build
> > process) to simplify the build process? If yes, can't it be included?
> > 
> > Or is it just bad design of internal build process, which needs manual
> > interventions?
> 
> I don't think it's because of a bad build process. It's just the 
> reality. For example, sometimes you need a specific version of a build 
> tool.

If integrated in repository, why not as build dependency?

>  Sometimes you need a fairly minor build tool like Gradle. 

Gradle? www.gradle.org? Why can't it be integrated in repository and
can't that particular software depend on it?

> Sometimes you need some jars that are not redistributable as a 
> compile-time dependency. It's that sort of things.
> 

This thing I understand. But not sure if such type of deliverables
should be part of main repository. As I said, binary-only repository
brings:

a) security concerns

b) law concerns

and decrease possibility of community cooperation

> 
> > I believe that Debian already contains a lot of jars, including very
> > complex Java projects.
> 
> Yes, but it still has a problem with any projects built with Maven (and 
> Maven is perhaps the 2nd most widely-used build system), and this 
> includes GlassFish. So that's why I said it's painful.
> 

I know how hard is to create good and correct "rebuildable" package. I'm
doing such things very frequently. And I still see huge benefit for
significant preference of source-submitted packages.

Yes, there are cases where it's impossible to do it. But why to make it
by default?

> 
> >> I'd like to present an interesting case study --- Maven repository.
> >> 
> >> Maven repository is a repository of binary jar files. It contains 
> >> several 10,000s of jars from all over the Java eco-system. Now, these 
> >> jar files are not built by any standard process nor by any official 
> >> release engineering of any sort. Process-wise, you can submit any 
> >> binary, with or without source code, and it'll be accepted.
> >> 
> > 
> > Including those which can contain patented code? Who is providing the
> > infrastructure?
> 
> IANAL, but patent and redistributability are orthogonal. The 
> infrastructure (which is in this case just a web server with a bunch of 
> jars) is provided by Ibiblio, I think.
> 

Are you sure that the infrastructure provider is not vunerable against
patent lawsuits?

Best regards,

Milan

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