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Progressive News & Views (since 1982)
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In most Indian tribes, it was accepted that there was "Private" property as
well as communal property. For example, no one owned the land, water, air,
plants or animals. However, if you had a favorite horse, or firearm, or
hunting shirt, that was yours. In fact, your presence could be identified if
something belonging to you was found, say your trademark arrowhead. Your own
personal pipe bundle was definitely yours and was usually buried or burned
with you when you crossed over. There were tribal sanctions for taking
personal items that didn't belong to you. And certain areas of land were
considered off limits. Kentucky, for example, was the shared, sacred hunting
grounds of several tribes and nations, though no tribe actually lived in
Kentucky. Even warring tribes would respect each other's right to hunt in
what we now call Kentucky. Other lands were considered to "Belong" to
various tribes. Unless your tribe was at war, most (Generally) were
permitted to travel and take as they needed. It was, however, considered
very bad to take more than you needed.
"Private" property and communalism/communism can co-exist. It doesn't have
to be simply black and white.
The Chinese, Soviets, East Germans and what we traditionally call
"Communist" countries were no where near what Marx/Engels had in mind when
they designed the "Communist" system. Cuba has come the closest, but neither
are they true "Communists." Perhaps Hugo Chavez in Venezuela may take his
people closer to real Communism. The concept of Bolivarian Revolution may
even be effective in saving us Yankees in that it might teach us that all
people are important regardless of our economic station in life.
Controlled Capitalism could work, but there has to be a social force to
control the greed and extreme competition that we now have, and that is
inherent in Capitalism. No social force is in place for that. The Christian
church claims to be that, but has provided too much support for "Manifest
Destiny" in their grab for absolute power and control, and has failed
miserably as a positive social institution.. We see with the rise of the
Neocons that the Church has been coopted for the gain and absolute control
of society of the rich, ruling class. Consequently, we have no "Brakes" on
society. We have far too wide a gulf between rich and poor. The rich in
society have severely reduced the chances of the poor being able to improve
their lot, thus reducing the competition and guaranteeing an ever increasing
classist society. We have replaced honor and compassion with the greed of
capitalism. What will we do when the poorest of the poor begin to starve to
death in the streets and become a massive public health hazard to those who
have sucked up all the resources necessary for life?
Anarchy could be a goal, but we have to evolve to the point where
everyone...and I mean EVERYONE has to believe that we have to look out for
each other's welfare. That's at least several hundred years into the future.
That is where we have to go, but are not even ready to begin that journey.
We have seen on a microcosmic level that this can work in the few reasonably
successful communes that exist like the Hog Farm in California, as an
off-the-top-of-my-head example. We're certainly not ready in this culture to
accept that.
We're going to have big problems until we learn to cooperate rather than
compete. I have to believe it's possible.
Skywolf.
Frodo has failed. Bush has the ring.
Skywolf is now blogging at: www.greenliberty.blogspot.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Patrick
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 11:50 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [pnews-views] Re: I'm no fan of the Chinese but I'm less of a fan
of capitalism
-----
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Progressive News & Views (since 1982)
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Well, I gently explained before that I think market capitalism can be
"repaired" to run in a way that many would think to be more upright. Even
those at the top have got to be required to make an earnest living, by
foregoing the blood soaked profits, and those from the worst of
exploitation.
I've spent some amount of time looking at (e.g.) Indymedia, where some sound
proud to be "anti-capitalist and anarchist." They didn't make the sale with
me, and the heart of it is this--
To be anti-capitalist would be to abolish private property.
To be anarchist would be to abolish hierarchical reporting structures in
society.
The former will never happen because the people who have something want to
keep it, understandably so, and private property was a fundamental essential
to the framers of the U.S. Constitution. Am I allowed to reach into your
closet and abscond with your favorite overcoat or leather jacket? --I don't
think so, and the mere suggestion should be offensive, if you have any
possessions you value, or if you value the right to own same in the future.
Your coat is private property, right?
The latter is flatly impossible, and a wishful dream (of some). It suggests
that every "org chart" must flatten. But, if some people want to "report to"
the Pope, or their favorite political or business leader -- who is anyone to
get in between them? The relation between a leader and his follower is
entirely their thing. Anyone else is external, and if they would try to
re-order that relationship, I would count them ignorant of human nature, and
totalitarian in their leanings. "Reporting structures," that is to say
hierarchy, arose in many lands long before America. As a world-wide
phenomenon, it can only be counted a part of human nature. Many times, it
even makes sense because a leader or a mentor may have experience and
resources that the follower would otherwise lack access to.
It is increasingly hard to be totalitarian in a digital society
characterized by an information explosion.
Yet, I feel that the suggestions of anti-capitalism and anarchy have beneath
the surface that current of totalitarianism. The suggestions are
unenforceable, save by the kind of intimidation, tyranny, and terror that
already accompanied communism in other lands. And so, from my part, I've
looked, and must report, "no sale."
/s./ John
>From: Hank Roth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [pnews-views] I'm no fan of the Chinese but I'm less of a fan
>of capitalism
>Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 10:02:05 -0400 (EDT)
>
> -----
> / o o \
>====OO=====OO===
> http://pnews.org/
>Progressive News & Views (since 1982)
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>
>
>---
>
>
>I'm less of a fan of capitalism with its very sordid history which is
>often ignored when extolling the virtues of owning that SUV and the big
>screen TV.
>
>I'm going to leave the rest of Patrick's commentary for others to
>address because I already too often monopolize what is written here. I
>hope others will take this as an invitation to join in the discussion
>which was initiated by Patrick (please post a link to the CNS site) and
>queried by Warren.
>
>I do have a few comments however about capitalism and Anarchists (just
>a few - for more on this and communism and socialism see
>http://pnews.org/archives/) but will start with anarchism who too many
>see as chaos rather than the worker's movement ideology which it is -
>and why May day began in America.
>
>May 1 is May Day and it is celebrated everywhere but where it began -
>in america. That seems ironic considering that it started here. In
>1886-7 four Chicago anarchists where executed and a 5th cheated the
>hangman by hanging himself in prison. Three more were to spend 6 years
>in prison until the governor of Illinois pardoned them saying the trial
>was characterized by a packed jury, hysteria and a biased judge. The
>state had put Anarchy on trial. The anarchists were trade union
>organizers and were framed by the police. And thus May day became a
>worker's holiday because it commemorates this frameup and what preceded
>it, the breakup of a labor strike and the police who violently broke it
>up in Haymarket Square - and then claiming the anarchists threw a bomb
>- which was never proven because it was a lie. The strike was a demand for
an 8 hour week.
>
> Happy May Day!
>
>Hank Roth
>
>
>
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