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Progressive News & Views (since 1982)
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In/re: "... what Marx/Engels had in mind when
they designed the "Communist" system...."
History as a whole, and the history of
revolutions in particularis always richer in content,
more varied, more multi-form, more lively and
ingenious than is imagined by even the best parties,
the most class consciousness of vanguards of the most
advanced classes. This can be readily understood,
because even the finest of vanguards express the class
consciousness, will, passion and imagination of tens
of thousands, whereas at moments of great upsurge and
exertion of all human capacities, revolutions are made
by the class consciousness, will, passion and
imagination of tens of millions, spurred on by a most
acute struggle of classes. (Left Wing Communism, an
Infantile Disorder)
Of course, that's Lenin, not Marx or Engels, but
let's see if there is an area of agreement, years
later.
"...So we cant claim that Marx and Engels
invented the idea of a society defined by common
ownership, mutuality, freedom and equality. But
socialism was their lifetime preoccupation and, unlike
the utopians, speculative thinking had a small place
in their writings. They were materialists and their
point of departure was objective reality with all of
its complexities and contradictions.... But because
socialism was not yet a material reality, and could
not be studied in that manner, they resisted making
anything more than the most general observations
regarding its content, contours, and historical
trajectory. Those observations, however, not to
mention their philosophy and methodology (dialectical
and historical materialism) remain of enormous value
and should inform our socialist analysis and
vision in the 21st century. ("Reflections on
Socialism," S. Webb)
So, we can't say that Karl and Fred brought down
from the mount the character of Socialism engraved on
tablets of stone, but gave us certain criteria to be
adapted to the circumstances and history of each
nation. I like the Cuban model, too, but just wait
tilL you see the U.S. model with the world's richest
history of democracy! Pull for your favorite aspects,
and they may be included!
Do you remember the old joke which goes:
"Come the Revolution, we'll all eat strawberries
and cream!"
"But _I_ don't like strawberries and cream!"
"Alas, then we can have no Revolution!!"
Some can eat, others don't have to, but nobody
gets to eat
SOMEBODY ELSE'S!!
--- Skywolf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In most Indian tribes, it was accepted that there
> was "Private" property as
> well as communal property. For example, no one owned
> the land, water, air,
> plants or animals. However, if you had a favorite
> horse, or firearm, or
> hunting shirt, that was yours. In fact, your
> presence could be identified if
> something belonging to you was found, say your
> trademark arrowhead. Your own
> personal pipe bundle was definitely yours and was
> usually buried or burned
> with you when you crossed over. There were tribal
> sanctions for taking
> personal items that didn't belong to you. And
> certain areas of land were
> considered off limits. Kentucky, for example, was
> the shared, sacred hunting
> grounds of several tribes and nations, though no
> tribe actually lived in
> Kentucky. Even warring tribes would respect each
> other's right to hunt in
> what we now call Kentucky. Other lands were
> considered to "Belong" to
> various tribes. Unless your tribe was at war, most
> (Generally) were
> permitted to travel and take as they needed. It was,
> however, considered
> very bad to take more than you needed.
>
> "Private" property and communalism/communism can
> co-exist. It doesn't have
> to be simply black and white.
>
> The Chinese, Soviets, East Germans and what we
> traditionally call
> "Communist" countries were no where near what
> Marx/Engels had in mind when
> they designed the "Communist" system. Cuba has come
> the closest, but neither
> are they true "Communists." Perhaps Hugo Chavez in
> Venezuela may take his
> people closer to real Communism. The concept of
> Bolivarian Revolution may
> even be effective in saving us Yankees in that it
> might teach us that all
> people are important regardless of our economic
> station in life.
>
> Controlled Capitalism could work, but there has to
> be a social force to
> control the greed and extreme competition that we
> now have, and that is
> inherent in Capitalism. No social force is in place
> for that. The Christian
> church claims to be that, but has provided too much
> support for "Manifest
> Destiny" in their grab for absolute power and
> control, and has failed
> miserably as a positive social institution.. We see
> with the rise of the
> Neocons that the Church has been coopted for the
> gain and absolute control
> of society of the rich, ruling class. Consequently,
> we have no "Brakes" on
> society. We have far too wide a gulf between rich
> and poor. The rich in
> society have severely reduced the chances of the
> poor being able to improve
> their lot, thus reducing the competition and
> guaranteeing an ever increasing
> classist society. We have replaced honor and
> compassion with the greed of
> capitalism. What will we do when the poorest of the
> poor begin to starve to
> death in the streets and become a massive public
> health hazard to those who
> have sucked up all the resources necessary for life?
>
>
> Anarchy could be a goal, but we have to evolve to
> the point where
> everyone...and I mean EVERYONE has to believe that
> we have to look out for
> each other's welfare. That's at least several
> hundred years into the future.
> That is where we have to go, but are not even ready
> to begin that journey.
> We have seen on a microcosmic level that this can
> work in the few reasonably
> successful communes that exist like the Hog Farm in
> California, as an
> off-the-top-of-my-head example. We're certainly not
> ready in this culture to
> accept that.
>
> We're going to have big problems until we learn to
> cooperate rather than
> compete. I have to believe it's possible.
>
> Skywolf.
>
>
> Frodo has failed. Bush has the ring.
>
> Skywolf is now blogging at:
> www.greenliberty.blogspot.com
>
> Well, I gently explained before that I think market
> capitalism can be
> "repaired" to run in a way that many would think to
> be more upright. Even
> those at the top have got to be required to make an
> earnest living, by
> foregoing the blood soaked profits, and those from
> the worst of
> exploitation.
>
> I've spent some amount of time looking at (e.g.)
> Indymedia, where some sound
> proud to be "anti-capitalist and anarchist." They
> didn't make the sale with
> me, and the heart of it is this--
>
> To be anti-capitalist would be to abolish private
> property.
> To be anarchist would be to abolish hierarchical
> reporting structures in
> society.
>
> The former will never happen because the people who
> have something want to
> keep it, understandably so, and private property was
> a fundamental essential
> to the framers of the U.S. Constitution. Am I
> allowed to reach into your
> closet and abscond with your favorite overcoat or
> leather jacket? --I don't
> think so, and the mere suggestion should be
> offensive, if you have any
> possessions you value, or if you value the right to
> own same in the future.
> Your coat is private property, right?
>
> The latter is flatly impossible, and a wishful dream
> (of some). It suggests
> that every "org chart" must flatten. But, if some
> people want to "report to"
>
> the Pope, or their favorite political or business
> leader -- who is anyone to
> get in between them? The relation between a leader
> and his follower is
> entirely their thing. Anyone else is external, and
> if they would try to
> re-order that relationship, I would count them
> ignorant of human nature, and
> totalitarian in their leanings. "Reporting
> structures," that is to say
> hierarchy, arose in many lands long before America.
> As a world-wide
> phenomenon, it can only be counted a part of human
> nature. Many times, it
> even makes sense because a leader or a mentor may
> have experience and
> resources that the follower would otherwise lack
> access to.
>
> It is increasingly hard to be totalitarian in a
> digital society
> characterized by an information explosion.
>
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