the guy in heaven --- speculation noted.
On Monday, January 4, 2016 at 6:07:50 PM UTC-6, brine wrote: > > Perhaps your sect only follows the New Testament, but many Christian > denominations do use the Old Testament in their teachings ... I know as a > child going to Catholic school, they used a lot of Old Testament stories to > push morality ... I suppose you need to go to a different church and hear > what they say ... growing up with a lot of kids of other Christian > denominations, I went to many churches and heard a lot of stuff ... for the > most part they all seemed to be more about the guy up front's attitudes > than the guy in heaven!!! > > On Mon, Jan 4, 2016 at 6:15 PM, Keith In Tampa <[email protected] > <javascript:>> wrote: > > As religious historian Philip Jenkins points out, there's really no > comparison between the the Bible and the Qu'ran with regard to the > message. If you're measuring violence, the Qu'ran still wins hands down! > > It is true that the first five Books of the Bible could be construed as > violent, but this was long before the Birth of Christ, or the Birth of > Mohammad. Christ, unlike Mohammad, brought a loving, caring and peaceful > message, whereas Mohammad brings violence, death and destruction. > > I must be missing the point here.....Comparison of Apples to Freight > Cars..... > > On Mon, Jan 4, 2016 at 3:15 PM, plainolamerican <[email protected] > <javascript:>> wrote: > > Is The Bible More Violent Than The Quran? > BARBARA BRADLEY HAGERTY > <http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124494788#> > Listen to the Story > <http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124494788#> > > All Things Considered <http://www.npr.org/programs/all-things-considered/> > *7:23* > > - Playlist > <http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124494788#> > - Download > <http://pd.npr.org/anon.npr-mp3/npr/atc/2010/03/20100318_atc_14.mp3?dl=1> > - Embed > <http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124494788#> > - Transcript > <http://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=124494788> > > [image: Pages of the Gutenberg Bible.] > > Pages of the Gutenberg Bible in Colmar, France. Religious historian Philip > Jenkins says scriptures from the Bible are more violent than those from the > Quran. > Johanna Leguerre/AFP/Getty Images > > As the hijackers boarded the airplanes on Sept. 11, 2001, they had a lot > on their minds. And if they were following instructions, one of those > things was the Quran. > > In preparation for the suicide attack, their handlers had told them to > meditate on two chapters of the Quran in which God tells Muslims to "cast > terror into the hearts of unbelievers." > > "Slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, arrest them, besiege them, and > lie in ambush everywhere for them," Allah instructs the Prophet Muhammad > (Quran, 9:5). He continues: "Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the > hypocrites! ... Hell shall be their home, an evil fate." > > When Osama bin Laden declared war on the West in 1996, he cited the > Quran's command to "strike off" the heads of unbelievers. More recently, > U.S. Army Maj. Nidal Hasan lectured his colleagues about jihad, or "holy > war," and the Quran's exhortation to fight unbelievers and bring them low. > Hasan is accused of killing 13 people at Fort Hood, Texas, last year. > > Given this violent legacy, religion historian Philip Jenkins decided to > compare the brutality quotient of the Quran and the Bible. > > *Defense Vs. Total Annihilation* > > "Much to my surprise, the Islamic scriptures in the Quran were actually > far less bloody and less violent than those in the Bible," Jenkins says. > > Jenkins is a professor at Penn State University and author of two books > dealing with the issue: the recently published *Jesus Wars*, and *Dark > Passages *, which has not been published but is already drawing > controversy. > > Much to my surprise, the Islamic scriptures in the Quran were actually far > less bloody and less violent than those in the Bible. > > Philip Jenkins, author of 'Jesus Wars' > > Violence in the Quran, he and others say, is largely a defense against > attack. > > "By the standards of the time, which is the 7th century A.D., the laws of > war that are laid down by the Quran are actually reasonably humane," he > says. "Then we turn to the Bible, and we actually find something that is > for many people a real surprise. There is a specific kind of warfare laid > down in the Bible which we can only call genocide." > > It is called *herem,* and it means total annihilation. Consider the Book > of 1 Samuel, when God instructs King Saul to attack the Amalekites: "And > utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them," God says > through the prophet Samuel. "But kill both man and woman, infant and > nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey." > > When Saul failed to do that, God took away his kingdom. > > "In other words," Jenkins says, "Saul has committed a dreadful sin by > failing to complete genocide. And that passage echoes through Christian > history. It is often used, for example, in American stories of the > confrontation with Indians — not just is it legitimate to kill Indians, but > you are violating God's law if you do not." > > Jenkins notes that the history of Christianity is strewn with *herem.* During > the Crusades in the Middle Ages, the Catholic popes declared the Muslims > Amalekites. In the great religious wars in the 16th, 17th and 19th > centuries, Protestants and Catholics each believed the other side were the > Amalekites and should be utterly destroyed. > > *'Holy Amnesia'* > > But Jenkins says, even though the Bible is violent, Christianity and > Judaism today are not for the most part. > > "What happens in all religions as they grow and mature and expand, they go > through a process of forgetting of the original violence, and I call this a > process of holy amnesia," Jenkins says. > [image: Philip Jenkins, the author of 'Jesus Wars']i > <http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124494788#> > > Jenkins, author of *Jesus Wars*, says that violence in the Quran is > largely a defense against attack. > Courtesy of HarperOne > > They make the violence symbolic: Wiping out the enemy becomes wiping out > one's own sins. Jenkins says that until recently, Islam had the same sort > of holy amnesia, and many Muslims interpreted jihad, for example, as an > internal struggle, not physical warfare. > > Andrew Bostom calls this analysis "preposterous." Bostom, editor of *The > Legacy of Jihad*, says there's a major difference between the Bible, > which describes the destruction of an enemy at a point in time, and the > Quran, which urges an ongoing struggle to defeat unbelievers. > > "It's an aggressive doctrine," he says. "The idea is to impose Islamic law > on the globe." > > Take suicide attacks, he says — a tactic that Muslim radicals have used to > great effect in the U.S., Iraq, Afghanistan and the Middle East. It's true > that suicide from depression is forbidden in Islam — but Bostom says the > Quran and the Hadith, or the sayings of Muhammad, do allow self-destruction > for religious reasons. > > "The notion of jihad martyrdom is extolled in the Quran, Quran verse > 9:1-11. And then in the Hadith, it's even more explicit. This is the > highest form of jihad — to kill and to be killed in acts of jihad." > > *'Out Of Context'* > > That may be the popular notion of jihad, says Waleed El-Ansary, but it's > the wrong one. El-Ansary, who teaches Islamic studies at the University of > South Carolina, says the Quran explicitly condemns religious aggression and > the killing of civilians. And it makes the distinction between jihad — > legal warfare with the proper rules of engagement — and *irjaf*, or > terrorism. > > "All of those types of incidences — [Sept. 11], Maj. Nidal Hasan and so > forth — those are all examples of *irjaf*, not jihad," he says. According > to the Quran, he says, those who practice *irjaf* "are going to hell." > > So what's going on here? After all, we all have images of Muslim radicals > flying planes into buildings, shooting up soldiers at Fort Hood, trying to > detonate a bomb on an airplane on Christmas Day. How to reconcile a > peaceful Quran with these violent acts? > > El-Ansary says that in the past 30 years, there's been a perfect storm > that has created a violent strain of Islam. The first is political: > frustration at Western intervention in the Muslim world. The second is > intellectual: the rise of Wahhabi Islam, a more fundamentalist > interpretation of Islam subscribed to by Osama bin Laden. El-Ansary says > fundamentalists have distorted Islam for political purposes. > > "Basically what they do is they take verses out of context and then use > that to justify these egregious actions," he says. > > El-Ansary says we are seeing more religious violence from Muslims now > because the Islamic world is far more religious than is the West. Still, > Jenkins says Judeo-Christian cultures shouldn't be smug. The Bible has > plenty of violence. > > "The scriptures are still there, dormant, but not dead," he says, "and > they can be resurrected at any time. Witness the white supremacists who > cite the murderous Phineas when calling for racial purity, or an > anti-abortion activist when shooting a doctor who performs abortions. > > In the end, the scholars can agree on one thing: The DNA of early Judaism, > Christianity and Islam code for a lot of violence. Whether they can evolve > out of it is another thing altogether. > Excerpt: 'Jesus Wars' > Updated July 15, 20115:01 AM ETPublished March 18, 201011:34 AM ET > > ... -- -- Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "PoliticalForum" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. 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