On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 10:16 AM, M. Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > Doug Baggett > The issue is a fairly straight forward one. At it's base is the > disagreement > over where/when the legal rights of an individual begin. If you believe > that > prior to birth a fetus is NOT a child (legally speaking)then it's > obviously the > right of the woman to choose. IF on the other hand it IS legally a person > then the child's right to live trumps any choice a woman might have (with > the exception where the mother's life is in danger which is a slight bit > fuzzy) > > MJ > In reality it matters NOT 'when life begins' NOR 'when one wishes to > attach rights' ... > > Individual A has no right to the life of Individual B. The Unborn has no > right to the life of the Woman. The Unborn has no right to enslave the > Woman. The Woman has EVERY right to defend Her life from the > Unborn.
Are we talking about legal or natural rights? It appears you've confirmed my statement. It is completely correct that from a natural rights perspective the rights of one person cannot infringe on the rights of another. I agree. I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion of the unborn enslaving the woman. Enslavement by another of somebody else cannot occur as a result of simply existing as a living independent being (Assuming that the unborn for the purposes of this argument is defined as an individual with natural rights). Enslavement is an affirmative act of aggression on the natural rights of another person. It does not appear to me that an unborn child is capable of enslaving another. It's fairly common and well known that John Locke opinionated that natural rights cannot be given up voluntarily. Locke also stated that the act of attempting to take them away is a conscious decision on the part of the person trying to do so. According to Locke - "For men, being all the workmanship of one omnipotent, and infinitely wise maker, they are his property, whose workmanship they are, made to last during his, not one another's pleasure" - John Locke Your assertion that a woman has the right to defend herself against the aggression of enslavement and breach of natural rights that may not be given up voluntarily does not provide any evidence that an unborn child is capable of, or that the situation of enslavement is one that can exist between a mother and unborn. Locke's statement "another's pleasure" clearly defines that the act of trying to take away another's right is an act of conscious choice. Please explain to me how a child can plot the enslavement of the mother (no nee to answer that, it's rhetorical). > > > Doug Baggett > It's been my experience that most pro-choice advocates avoid the > question of the status of unborn children entirely. It's almost a > non sequitur. > Pro-life advocates mostly derive their positions from religious > faith and since faith is a self-evident truth it's a bit difficult to > debate. > > MJ > I find it amusing that the Pro-Slavery Camp and the Pro-Choice Camp > essentially 'swap' positions and arguments ONCE the unborn becomes > born. > > Regard$, > --MJ > > A right is the sanction of independent action. A right is that > which can be exercised without anyone's permission. If you exist > only because society permits you to exist, you have no right to > your own life. A permission can be revoked at any time. If, > before undertaking some action, you must obtain the permission > of society - you are not free, whether such permission is granted > to you or not. Only a slave acts on permission. A permission is > not a right. -- Alyssa Rosenbaum > > -- > Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. > For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum > > * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ > * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. > * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -- Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more.
