So you post something supposedly claiming there was no
torture except it cites examples of such -- of course it attempts
to diminish them.
Regard$,
--MJ
Of all the enemies of true liberty, war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded, because it comprises and develops the germ of every other.
War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few.
In war, too, the discretionary power of the Executive is extended; its influence in dealing out offices, honors and emoluments is multiplied; and all the means of seducing the minds, are added to those of subduing the force, of the people.
The same malignant aspect in republicanism may be traced in the inequality of fortunes, and the opportunities of fraud, growing out of a state of war, and in the degeneracy of manner and of morals, engendered in both.
No nation can preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare.
War is in fact the true nurse of executive aggrandizement. In war, a physical force is to be created; and it is the executive will, which is to direct it.
In war, the public treasuries are to be unlocked; and it is the executive hand which is to dispense them.
In war, the honors and emoluments of office are to be multiplied; and it is the executive patronage under which they are to be enjoyed; and it is the executive brow they are to encircle.
The strongest passions and most dangerous weaknesses of the human breast; ambition, avarice, vanity, the honorable or venal love of fame, are all in conspiracy against the desire and duty of peace.
--James Madison, from "Political Observations," April 20, 1795 in Letters and Other
At 05:50 PM 11/5/2010, you wrote:
Michael,--
From April 19, 2009, and posted here, to Political Forum:
=======
Good Afternoon,
As probably everyone in the Group is aware, last week, the Obama Administration released several CIA Memorandums outlining and detailing some of the enhanced interrogation techniques that were used back in 2002 and 2003 against homicidal murderers who were intent upon attacking the United States.
Many far left publications, including the New York Times, have labeled these enhanced interrogation techniques as "torture". I have seen many members of this group, (and most especially members of Euwetopia and Politics Du Jour) also label these enhanced interrogation techniques as "torture".
There is a divergence of opinion and what I perceive to be a stark contrast in beliefs between those Americans who I consider to hold far left extremist viewpoints, as compared to those Americans who I deem to be rational thinkers. Herein lies the very crux of the cultural divide in our Nation.
There are actually several Memoranda that were released, and I opine that the two which shed the most light were written by Steven Bradbury, one on May 10th 2005 and one on May 30th 2005. I have cited portions from the May 10, 2005 Memorandum in this message, which can be found here:
http://s3.amazonaws.com/propublica/assets/missing_memos/28OLCmemofinalredact30May05.pdf
All of the Memoranda can be found on the ACLU's web site, and the May 30th 2005 Memorandum goes into pretty specific detail with regard to the actual techniques and tactics used:
http://www.aclu.org/safefree/general/olc_memos.html
The May 10th Memoranda ("The Memorandum") goes into finite detail regarding the procedures utilized against some twenty-eight, (28) detainees/enemy combatants, where some minor form of enhanced interrogation techniques were utlized. See Memorandum at 5-6. These techniques ranged (among other minor tactics which are listed in the report) from forcing the detainee to remain nude which might cause embarassment, (there was no sexual abuse or threats of sexual abuse, and the ambient air temperature was always above 68 ° F); to dietary manipulation which consisted of a bland, commerical liquid diet, but had sufficient caloric intake of over 1,000 Calories a day; (and the detainee could drink as much water as he pleased); to sleep deprivation, where a detainee might in fact be kept awake for up to 96 hours, (something that I imagine all of us have done at some point in time, I know I have!!) See Memorandum at 12-15, 31-33.
If these measures failed, then more severe coercive techniques were utilized, such as the "false wall" technique, where a detainee was pushed against a collapsable wall, more for the noise level effect and the detainee was absolutely never subjected to pain or any harm done to his person. The old, "Water Splashing" technique was also utilized, wherein a detainee was splashed with water that was always above 41 ° F, and usually above 50 ° F. The Detainee was always in ambient air temperatures of above 68 ° F, and there was precautions to insure that the detainee was never allowed to sit in the wet clothing where there was any danger of hypothermia. See Memorandum at 15, 35.
The final, most drastic step was "waterboarding" where at no time was the detainee ever subjected to pain, or any kind of physical harm!!! Waterboarding is based on a deeply rooted physiological response which makes an individual believe that he is drowning, even if he knows that no harm will come to him. See Memorandum at 15.
To date, there has only been 3, (Count em': THREE !!!) detainees who were ever exposed to the waterboarding technique. Those three homicidal murderers who were exposed to the waterboarding technique were Abu Zubaydah, Kahlid Shaykh Muhammad, and Rahim al Nashiri. See Memorandum at 7, 35. They actually had to bitch slap al Nashiri to shut him up, after one short water boarding episode.....See Memorandum at 8. (I am kidding here!!)
After reading the report, I don't think any rational person, any thinking American, could conclude that the acts described in the "Bradbury Report" can be construed as torture. At no time were either Zubdayah, Khalid (Sheikh Mohammed) , or al Nashari; e.g.; the the only three individuals who were waterboarded, ever exposed to any mental or physical harm, nor were they ever remotely placed in danger or harm's way.
Never were any of the total of 28 detainees who were exposed to the lesser enhanced interrogation tactics, and the three who were exposed to the waterboarding, ever subjected to pain.
At all times during any enhanced interrogation tactics, there was always a medical doctor, and a psychologist present to monitor these homicidal murderers' physical and mental conditions, and to insure that these detainees were ever subjected to any physcial or mental harm!!
These enhanced interrogation tactics never lasted longer than 30 days, and usually only lasted for a period not exceeding seven days. (See Memorandum at 7)
Just as important.....No, more importantly, the results of the enhanced interrogation tactics DID WORK SUCCESSFULLY!!
After repeated attempts to obtain information from Khalid and Zubdayah regarding al Queida plans to attack our Nation, and prior to any enhanced interrogation tactics by the CIA, Khalid's only response would be, "Soon you will know". See Memorandum at 9.
After Khalid got doused with a little bit of water, and was finally subjected to (again, medically supervised waterboarding) Khalid finally revealed the plot to crash a plane into a Los Angeles skyscraper, as well as attacks on Los Angeles International Airport. That the cell who was planning to carry this attack out, (parts of the cell were located here in the United States) were apprehended. Through the enhanced interrogation techniques, it was learned of a plot to set off a dirty bomb in Washington D.C. as well as the structure of al Queida and various cells and structure of al Queida and the Taliban. See Memorandum at 10-11.
In other words, these techniques saved literally hundreds of thousands of Americans' lives in Washington D.C. and Southern California.
I would encourage everyone to take thirty minutes and at least read the May 10th Report, especially if you are one that beleives our Nation engaged in "Torture".
Specifically, I want to understand those who believe that we engaged in tortuous activities' train of thought and how you come to this conclusion. I am not attempting to be facetious, I am literally trying to understand those who hold the view that the enhanced interrogation tactics as somehow constituting torture, and how you all ascertain this belief.
I would love to hear Mark's (The Annointed One!!) Lobo's, Biff's Fritz's, Golem's and many of the Euewtopians' perspectives and opinions on the report, (as well as any other members' thoughts on the Bradbury Report)
Respectfully,
Keith In Tampa
--
Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups.
For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum
* Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/
* It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls.
* Read the latest breaking news, and more.
Content-Type: application/pdf; name="olc_05102005_bradbury46pg.pdf"
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="olc_05102005_bradbury46pg.pdf"
X-Attachment-Id: f_ftq09vrn1
Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups.
For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum
* Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/
* It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls.
* Read the latest breaking news, and more.
