Hey Michael, If you are reading this from e-mail, and don't have the thread saved, I suggest that you go back to the start of this thread in the Group, and read from the beginning. There is some very good articles and a lot of information in this thread. Here's the link:
http://groups.google.com/group/politicalforum/browse_thread/thread/cee2f28bb772bb8e/551cb9500424ed06 On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 9:10 PM, Keith In Tampa <[email protected]>wrote: > Michael, > > There was nothing condoned by our government, (and the few instances where > there was impropriety, the individuals were prosecuted) that, "Shocked The > Human Conscience". > > If you cannot understand that, then this leaves two options. (A) You have > not read Yoo's, Bradbury's and Rumsfeld's Defense Committee's Memoranda; as > well as the numerous investigations as to what actually transpired; or (B) > You are just not as bright as I had once envisioned. > > > > > On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 8:51 PM, MJ <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> So you post something supposedly claiming there was no >> torture except it cites examples of such -- of course it attempts >> to diminish them. >> >> Regard$, >> --MJ >> >> Of all the enemies of true liberty, war is, perhaps, the most to be >> dreaded, because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. >> >> War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and >> armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many >> under the domination of the few. >> >> In war, too, the discretionary power of the Executive is extended; its >> influence in dealing out offices, honors and emoluments is multiplied; and >> all the means of seducing the minds, are added to those of subduing the >> force, of the people. >> >> The same malignant aspect in republicanism may be traced in the inequality >> of fortunes, and the opportunities of fraud, growing out of a state of war, >> and in the degeneracy of manner and of morals, engendered in both. >> >> No nation can preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare. >> >> War is in fact the true nurse of executive aggrandizement. In war, a >> physical force is to be created; and it is the executive will, which is to >> direct it. >> >> In war, the public treasuries are to be unlocked; and it is the executive >> hand which is to dispense them. >> >> In war, the honors and emoluments of office are to be multiplied; and it >> is the executive patronage under which they are to be enjoyed; and it is the >> executive brow they are to encircle. >> >> The strongest passions and most dangerous weaknesses of the human breast; >> ambition, avarice, vanity, the honorable or venal love of fame, are all in >> conspiracy against the desire and duty of peace. >> >> --James Madison, from "Political Observations," April 20, 1795 in Letters >> and Other >> >> >> >> >> >> At 05:50 PM 11/5/2010, you wrote: >> >> Michael, >> >> From April 19, 2009, and posted here, to Political Forum: >> >> ======= >> >> Good Afternoon, >> >> As probably everyone in the Group is aware, last week, the Obama >> Administration released several CIA Memorandums outlining and detailing some >> of the enhanced interrogation techniques that were used back in 2002 and >> 2003 against homicidal murderers who were intent upon attacking the United >> States. >> >> Many far left publications, including the New York Times, have labeled >> these enhanced interrogation techniques as "torture". I have seen many >> members of this group, (and most especially members of Euwetopia and >> Politics *Du Jour*) also label these enhanced interrogation techniques as >> "torture". >> >> There is a divergence of opinion and what I perceive to be a stark >> contrast in beliefs between those Americans who I consider to hold far left >> extremist viewpoints, as compared to those Americans who I deem to be >> rational thinkers. Herein lies the very crux of the cultural divide in our >> Nation. >> >> There are actually several Memoranda that were released, and I opine that >> the two which shed the most light were written by Steven Bradbury, one on >> May 10th 2005 and one on May 30th 2005. I have cited portions from the May >> 10, 2005 Memorandum in this message, which can be found here: >> >> >> http://s3.amazonaws.com/propublica/assets/missing_memos/28OLCmemofinalredact30May05.pdf >> >> All of the Memoranda can be found on the ACLU's web site, and the May 30th >> 2005 Memorandum goes into pretty specific detail with regard to the actual >> techniques and tactics used: >> >> http://www.aclu.org/safefree/general/olc_memos.html >> >> The May 10th Memoranda ("The Memorandum") goes into finite detail >> regarding the procedures utilized against some twenty-eight, (28) >> detainees/enemy combatants, where some minor form of enhanced interrogation >> techniques were utlized. *See* Memorandum at 5-6. These techniques >> ranged (among other minor tactics which are listed in the report) from >> forcing the detainee to remain nude which might cause embarassment, (there >> was no sexual abuse or threats of sexual abuse, and the ambient air >> temperature was always above 68 ° F); to dietary manipulation which >> consisted of a bland, commerical liquid diet, but had sufficient caloric >> intake of over 1,000 Calories a day; (and the detainee could drink as much >> water as he pleased); to sleep deprivation, where a detainee might in fact >> be kept awake for up to 96 hours, (something that I imagine all of us have >> done at some point in time, I know I have!!) *See* Memorandum at 12-15, >> 31-33. >> >> If these measures failed, then more severe coercive techniques were >> utilized, such as the "false wall" technique, where a detainee was pushed >> against a collapsable wall, more for the noise level effect and the >> detainee was absolutely never subjected to pain or any harm done to his >> person. The old, "Water Splashing" technique was also utilized, wherein a >> detainee was splashed with water that was always above 41 ° F, and usually >> above 50 ° F. The Detainee was always in ambient air temperatures of above >> 68 ° F, and there was precautions to insure that the detainee was never >> allowed to sit in the wet clothing where there was any danger of >> hypothermia. *See* Memorandum at 15, 35. >> >> The final, most drastic step was "waterboarding" where at no time was the >> detainee ever subjected to pain, or any kind of physical harm!!! >> Waterboarding is based on a deeply rooted physiological response which >> makes an individual believe that he is drowning, even if he knows that no >> harm will come to him. *See *Memorandum at 15. >> >> To date, there has only been 3, (Count em': THREE !!!) detainees who >> were ever exposed to the waterboarding technique. Those three homicidal >> murderers who were exposed to the waterboarding technique were Abu Zubaydah, >> Kahlid Shaykh Muhammad, and Rahim al Nashiri. *See* Memorandum at 7, >> 35. They actually had to bitch slap al Nashiri to shut him up, after one >> short water boarding episode.....*See* Memorandum at 8. (I am kidding >> here!!) >> >> After reading the report, I don't think any rational person, any thinking >> American, could conclude that the acts described in the "Bradbury Report" >> can be construed as torture. At no time were either Zubdayah, Khalid >> (Sheikh Mohammed) , or al Nashari; *e.g*.; the the only three individuals >> who were waterboarded, ever exposed to any mental or physical harm, nor were >> they ever remotely placed in danger or harm's way. >> >> Never were any of the total of 28 detainees who were exposed to the lesser >> enhanced interrogation tactics, and the three who were exposed to the >> waterboarding, ever subjected to pain. >> >> At all times during any enhanced interrogation tactics, there was always >> a medical doctor, and a psychologist present to monitor these homicidal >> murderers' physical and mental conditions, and to insure that these >> detainees were ever subjected to any physcial or mental harm!! >> >> These enhanced interrogation tactics never lasted longer than 30 days, and >> usually only lasted for a period not exceeding seven days. (*See*Memorandum >> at 7) >> >> Just as important.....No, more importantly, the results of the enhanced >> interrogation tactics DID WORK SUCCESSFULLY!! >> >> After repeated attempts to obtain information from Khalid and Zubdayah >> regarding al Queida plans to attack our Nation, and prior to any enhanced >> interrogation tactics by the CIA, Khalid's only response would be, "Soon you >> will know". *See* Memorandum at 9. >> >> After Khalid got doused with a little bit of water, and was finally >> subjected to (again, medically supervised waterboarding) Khalid finally >> revealed the plot to crash a plane into a Los Angeles skyscraper, as well as >> attacks on Los Angeles International Airport. That the cell who was >> planning to carry this attack out, (parts of the cell were located here in >> the United States) were apprehended. Through the enhanced interrogation >> techniques, it was learned of a plot to set off a dirty bomb in Washington >> D.C. as well as the structure of al Queida and various cells and structure >> of al Queida and the Taliban. *See *Memorandum at 10-11. >> >> In other words, these techniques saved literally hundreds of thousands of >> Americans' lives in Washington D.C. and Southern California. >> >> I would encourage everyone to take thirty minutes and at least read the >> May 10th Report, especially if you are one that beleives our Nation engaged >> in "Torture". >> >> Specifically, I want to understand those who believe that we engaged in >> tortuous activities' train of thought and how you come to this conclusion. >> I am not attempting to be facetious, I am literally trying to understand >> those who hold the view that the enhanced interrogation tactics as somehow >> constituting torture, and how you all ascertain this belief. >> >> I would love to hear Mark's (The Annointed One!!) Lobo's, Biff's Fritz's, >> Golem's and many of the Euewtopians' perspectives and opinions on the >> report, (as well as any other members' thoughts on the Bradbury Report) >> >> >> Respectfully, >> >> Keith In Tampa >> >> -- >> Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. >> For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum >> >> * Visit our other community at >> http://www.PoliticalForum.com/<http://www.politicalforum.com/> >> * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. >> * Read the latest breaking news, and more. >> Content-Type: application/pdf; name="olc_05102005_bradbury46pg.pdf" >> Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="olc_05102005_bradbury46pg.pdf" >> X-Attachment-Id: f_ftq09vrn1 >> >> -- >> Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. >> For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum >> >> * Visit our other community at >> http://www.PoliticalForum.com/<http://www.politicalforum.com/> >> * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. >> * Read the latest breaking news, and more. >> > > -- Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more.
