---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Mark **
Pardon the interruption. I needed to take time away from my three contacts. Karl, this post is one of the most knowledgeable, respectful, well written posts I have ever read in a Yahoo group. It is plain to see your passion in the Bible, and if passion is too strong a word, your dedication to researching, and seeking to understand, from a historical, as well as a biblical sense. I thank you for your wisdom. Reading this today, simply made to step back and think. *From:* P <[email protected]> Warning: This is a very long post and includes a bible lesson. I reset the subject so remove the term "fag basher" which I find offensive both to my friends who are homosexuals and to my friends who do not approve of homosexuality. Hopefully this will not cause anyone any confusion. In response to Spencer: I think the government should stay out of the marriage definition business. Conflicts are bound to occur in an "open society" with diverse religious and cultural points of view. For the government to force anyone to do anything that is against one religion or favorable to another is generally unnecessary if the government would stay within it's intended boundaries of power. Biblical scholars have come down on both sides of the homosexual issue; the split is roughly 50/50. There is evidence that can lead one to either conclusion. A very brief summary of my own studies regarding this issue is below. Scholars who suggest Paul was a homosexual are simply projecting their own "wishful thinking" on a evidence that is sketchy to say the least, non-existent to say the truth. While you have a right to your opinion on what "God thinks", if you are wrong, it is you who are ignorant. I guarantee you that it is not God. Your last sentence is again, wishful thinking on the part of people who project an agenda on to evidence that is far too weak to make any real objective conclusions about. - I'm sure there are many people who "hate" homosexuals that are "closet" homosexuals. - I'm sure there are many who hate homosexuals because they simply hate anything they do not understand. - I'm sure there are many who have interpreted the bible to say "God sees homosexuality as an abomination" while at the same time, keeping many friends who are openly homosexual. - I'm sure there are many other categories of belief that can be illustrated as wide spread. I would appreciate it if you would include some links to research when you site it in your posts. A brief essay from my own studies: Their are twelve mentions of homosexuality in the bible; 2 refer to rape, 5 refer to cult prostitution, 1 refers to prostitution and pederasty, and 4 are non-specific. The first mention in the Bible is in Genesis 19:1-13. The wicked men of Sodom attempted a homosexual rape of two messengers from God who had come to visit Lot. As a result of this and other widespread wickedness, God destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. The next two mentions are in Leviticus: Lev 18:22 ESV You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. Lev 20:13 ESV If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. Life was harsh in early Old Testament times. The wanderings and struggle for survival of the Israelites did not permit prisons or rehabilitation. Anyone who deviated seriously from the norm was either stoned to death or exiled. The Old Testament prescribed the death penalty for the crimes of murder, attacking or cursing a parent, kidnapping, failure to confine a dangerous animal resulting in death, witchcraft and sorcery, sex with an animal, doing work on the Sabbath, incest, adultery, homosexual acts, prostitution by a priest's daughter, blasphemy, false prophecy, perjury in capital cases and false claim of a woman's virginity at the time of marriage. It must be emphasized that, according to the New Testament, we are no longer under the harsh Old Testament Law (John 1:16-17, Romans 8:1-3, 1 Corinthians 9:20-21). The concern with punishment is now secondary to Jesus' message of repentance and redemption. Both reward and punishment are seen as properly taking place in eternity, rather than in this life. In Old Testament times, homosexual activity was strongly associated with idolatrous cult prostitution as in 1 Kings 14:24, 15:12. (There was also cult prostitution by females.) In fact, the word "abomination," used in both mentions of homosexual acts in Leviticus, is a translation of the Hebrew word tow' ebah which means something morally disgusting, but it also has a strong implication of idolatry. Thus, many Bible scholars believe the condemnations in Leviticus are more a condemnation of the idolatry than of the homosexual acts themselves. However, that interpretation is not certain. As for the New Testament, Jesus never mentioned homosexuality, but He did condemn all forms of sexual immorality: What comes out of you is what defiles you. For from within, out of your hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and defile you. (TNIV, Mark 7:20-23) The apostle Paul, in one of his letters to the Corinthians, wrote the verses most often quoted on this subject: Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (NIV, 1st Corinthians 6:9-11) This verse has been translated in as many different ways as there are different versions of the Bible, so we have to look at the oldest Greek manuscripts to try to grasp what Paul was really saying. The word translated here as "male prostitute" is the Greek word malakos which literally means "soft to the touch." However, it was used metaphorically in a negative way to refer to a catamite (a boy kept for sexual relations with a man) or to a male prostitute in general. The word translated here as "homosexual offender" is the Greek word arsenokoites which means a person who engages in any kind of unnatural sex, but especially homosexual intercourse. Some believe this use of arsenokoites referred specifically to the men who kept catamites, but that is not certain. There are two other New Testament mentions of homosexual acts, in Romans 1:25-27 and 1 Timothy 1:8-10. In this passage from Romans, again in the context of idolatry, Paul mentions women who "exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones," which might apply to lesbian acts: They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator-- who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. (NIV, Romans 1:25-27) It is sometimes said that the friendship between David and Jonathan (1 Samuel 18:3-4, 2 Samuel 1:26) was an example of a homosexual relationship. The relationships between Ruth and Naomi (Ruth 1:14) and between Jesus and John ("the disciple Jesus loved" in John 13:23; 19:26; 21:7; 21:20) are also mentioned. In modern Western culture we associate touching, kissing and the word "love" with a sexual relationship. But that was not at all the case in Biblical era culture. Most Bible scholars say these relationships were no more than close friendships. That is especially clear in the case of Jesus and John - the word translated as "loved" was the Greek word agape, which means kindness and respect rather than romantic or sexual love. There is no mention of same-sex marriages or partnerships in the Bible, either for or against. The omission is probably because these issues were not even considered in Biblical times. Pepsiman ------------------------------ *From:* Spencer <[email protected]> *To:* [email protected] *Sent:* Wed, July 13, 2011 1:10:48 PM *Subject:* [RumblesAList] Homosexuality, The Bible & Fag Bashers ---News Article: Fotusky was not immediately available for comment, but in her letter, dated July 11, she said she believes the Bible takes precedence over man-made laws. "The Bible clearly teaches that God created marriage between male and female as a divine gift that preserves families and cultures. Since I love and follow Him, I cannot put my signature on something that is against God," she wrote. ---------------(SPENCER)--It is both sad and in some ways amusing for someone to cite the King James version of the Bible and contrast that to "ma-made laws". ---Furthermore, biblical scholars have long since debunked the claim that private, one on one, homosexual relationships are generally prohibited by "the Bible". Jesus Christ *never* spoke against homosexuality (he busted on the rich non-stop), and in fact, there are passages where he condones or approves of homosexual liasons in an indirect manner. Scholars also have suggested that there is considerable evidence that Paul was a closet homosexual, and much of the 'anti homosexual' biblical material comes from Paul's writings. The old Testament comments are focused primarily upon what would be drag queen prostitutes in today's culture and upon the need for the ancient Jewish tribes to produce a lot of babies so they would have soldiers for their enemies. ----To summarize, I feel quite certain that God is not an ignorant bigot, and thus he or she does not condemn homosexuality. Respectfully, Spencer James ---PS--Research has confirmed that men who loudly bust on homosexuals or who spout homophobia invariably have personal issues characterized by them having homoerotic fantasies which produce undue anxiety for them. Freud observed this nearly a century ago, and it has been confirmed with modern sophisticated equipment. ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RumblesAList/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RumblesAList/join (Yahoo! 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