A good and complete model is the first step. Then it is a matter of how much it is used and what drawbacks it might have that would be addressed by a more integrated implementation.
On Mon, Jan 31, 2022 at 1:27 PM Henry Rich <henryhr...@gmail.com> wrote: > I have looked into this quite a bit. I am not convinced that Dictionary > is a fundamental datatype like number or letter, or that the current > symbol support is deficient. That makes the first questions What is a > Dictionary? and Where can a Dictionary be used in J? > > The use case that would be important to me is a key-value store, aka > associative memory, where the Dictionary remember keys and values and > later returns a value when presented with the key. This feels to me like > a package written in J rather than a J primitive. A Dictionary would be > a numbered locale. The place where I could see added support inside J > would be in adding to and deleting from hashtables, specifically ones > created/used by m&i. . > > I invite proposals on what a Dictionary package needs to do. I have > done this before, and Jan-Pieter Jacobs responded with a package. > Quoting from his message of 20210327: > > *** QUOTE > > install'github:jpjacobs/types_dict@main' > > (except on (my) android, where github installs don't seem to work, neither > in the Gui version JA nor on the commandline via termux) > > It is pretty simple in use, you just use: > d=: dict keys;vals > for creating the dictionary, which is a OOP object, having the following > methods: > get, set, map, sort, destroy, whose documentation is contained in > help_pdict_ > > For performance, the create verb precomputes the lookup for the get verb, > both forward get (key->value) and backward get inv (value->first key) upon > object creation. > > *** END QUOTE > > I have not looked into this package, but it seems to me to have the > right entry points. Can we take that as a starting point to see what > needs to be added? The first step of course would be to put the addon > under Package Manager. > > Henry Rich > > > > On 1/31/2022 12:58 PM, Elijah Stone wrote: > > I agree with Eric regarding the challenges of adding dictionaries. > > > > One issue: I think a necessary prerequisite is improved symbols. > > > > On Mon, 31 Jan 2022, Alex Shroyer wrote: > > > >> I agree with Raoul that competing with Python is not a good idea. > >> But J can learn from Python's decisions (good and bad) to grow and > >> improve. > >> In my opinion, numpy is Python's "killer app" because it brings > >> reasonable > >> performance without much conceptual overhead. > >> The feature of Python that enabled numpy is its extensibility, down > >> to the > >> C layer. > >> > >> There are other good features of Python that J could copy, in particular > >> the 'dictionary' data type. > >> The array language K has dictionaries, so J might take some inspiration > >> from there for integrating them into the language. > >> > >> Cheers, > >> Alex > >> > >> > >> On Mon, Jan 31, 2022 at 5:30 AM Raoul Schorer <raoul.scho...@gmail.com> > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Just my 2c, but I think that competing with python in general is > >>> somewhat > >>> delusional. I think the key point for expanding J use to have a > >>> "killer J > >>> app". For example, an improved clone of or excellent plugin for > >>> VisiData ( > >>> https://www.visidata.org/) is my idea of a killer app. But someone > here > >>> may > >>> have a better idea? > >>> > >>> Cheers, > >>> Raoul > >>> > >>> Le lun. 31 janv. 2022 à 03:49, Ric Sherlock <tikk...@gmail.com> a > >>> écrit : > >>> > >>> > Yes from a data structure point of view, inverted tables get you a > >>> lot of > >>> > the way (note they're also available in the 'general/misc' addon - > >>> load > >>> > 'general/misc/inverted' ) and I've used them to good effect in my > >>> > 'data/struct' addon (https://github.com/tikkanz/data_struct). > >>> > I agree that J's arrays are more general, flexible & powerful. But > >>> when > >>> > you're dealing with a tabular data set there is an overhead to > >>> keeping > >>> the > >>> > fields in a table in sync that dataframes can help with. Perhaps it's > >>> > something abstracting the structure so you don't have to deal so much > >>> with > >>> > the mechanics of manipulating it? At least for me :) > >>> > > >>> > On Mon, Jan 31, 2022 at 3:28 PM Elijah Stone <elro...@elronnd.net> > >>> wrote: > >>> > > >>> > > https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Essays/Inverted_Table, perhaps? > >>> > > > >>> > > That said, I think a great strength of j is that data are _not_ > >>> > explicitly > >>> > > tabular. The associations are defined in an ad-hoc manner as > >>> needed by > >>> > > the programmer. This is also an essential difference between > >>> the array > >>> > > paradigm and the relational paradigm (cf SQL): in the former, > >>> pointers > >>> > > come with implicit context; in the latter, that context must be > >>> explicit. > >>> > > > >>> > > -E > >>> > > > >>> > > P.S. regarding analysis/optimization: I would love to see it, > >>> but for > >>> > some > >>> > > reason everybody is scared of building a compiler because of the > >>> parsing > >>> > > problem. > >>> > > > >>> > > On Mon, 31 Jan 2022, Ric Sherlock wrote: > >>> > > > >>> > > > Yes, I've been thinking that a Dataframes equivalent in J > >>> would be > >>> > > useful. > >>> > > > Most things are already possible with J's arrays, but > >>> conceptually > >>> > > > DataFrames are well understood by many now, and they make it > >>> easy to > >>> > work > >>> > > > with datasets as named fields. > >>> > > > I've spent a reasonable amount of time working with Pandas, > >>> but have > >>> > > > recently been using Polars (Rust backend with Python bindings) > >>> which > >>> > > really > >>> > > > shines for larger datasets. Performance (especially > >>> read/write) is > >>> > > awesome, > >>> > > > and the LazyFrames which optimise your query/analysis plan > >>> make a big > >>> > > > difference too. > >>> > > > I haven't taken enough time to explore it, but maybe Jd is the > >>> starting > >>> > > > point in this space for J? > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > On Mon, Jan 31, 2022 at 9:01 AM Michail L. Liarmakopoulos < > >>> > > > m.l.liarm...@gmail.com> wrote: > >>> > > > > >>> > > >> Hello all, > >>> > > >> > >>> > > >> I find any parallels between python and J pretty interesting, > >>> being > >>> a > >>> > > >> person with some python experience and an interest of the > >>> applications > >>> > > of > >>> > > >> both python and J in mathematical modelling, analytics, > >>> computational > >>> > > math > >>> > > >> and perhaps computational physics too. > >>> > > >> > >>> > > >> If you'd like to bring some features from the python > >>> math/analytics > >>> > > >> libraries/ecosystem in J, I'd suggest you to look at the > >>> features of > >>> > > three > >>> > > >> libraries: > >>> > > >> > >>> > > >> - numpy (I believe most features are already covered from the > >>> built > >>> in > >>> > > >> features of an array language such as J) > >>> > > >> > >>> > > >> - pandas ( a nice library for manipulating csv files within > >>> python > >>> as > >>> > > >> dataframe objects -- see the dataframes from the R language) > >>> > > >> > >>> > > >> - scipy (a collection of methods and functions ranging from > >>> solving > >>> > > >> numerically: differential equations, evaluating definite > >>> integrals, > >>> > > >> constrained and unconstrained optimization, and I believe > >>> statistics > >>> > > too) > >>> > > >> > >>> > > >> There is also out there an amazing python library for symbolic > >>> > > calculations > >>> > > >> (like the ones you can do with Mathematica or WolframAlpha: > >>> symbolic > >>> > > >> evaluation of definite and indefinite integrals, symbolic > >>> solutions > >>> of > >>> > > >> diff. equations, symbolic solutions of algebraic and Diophantine > >>> > > equations > >>> > > >> etc...). It's called sympy. > >>> > > >> > >>> > > >> But I'm not sure if you'd like J to include symbolic > >>> computations > >>> too > >>> > > or if > >>> > > >> the aim of the language is to excel only in numerics, data > >>> analytics, > >>> > > >> stats, whatever can be quantified pretty much. > >>> > > >> > >>> > > >> My few cents as food for thought. > >>> > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > > >> Best regards, > >>> > > >> > >>> > > >> --- > >>> > > >> Michail L. Liarmakopoulos, MSc > >>> > > >> > >>> > > >> On Sun, Jan 30, 2022, 20:39 R.E. Boss <r.e.b...@outlook.com> > >>> wrote: > >>> > > >> > >>> > > >> > > >>> > > >> > > >>> > > >> > I copied the first chapter of the book A Journey to Core > >>> Python > >>> (in > >>> > > >> > > >>> > > >> > >>> > > > >>> > > >>> > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1p1uIANh-LFniNNRqjDeeWWd4_-ddEZmz/view?usp=sharing > >>> > >>> > > >> ) > >>> > > >> > and have the question: do we want that J is competitive with > >>> Python? > >>> > > >> > > >>> > > >> > If the answer is yes, the next question is: what is the to > >>> do list > >>> > to > >>> > > be > >>> > > >> > competitive and how long will it take? > >>> > > >> > > >>> > > >> > (And then the unavoidable question: WHY?) > >>> > > >> > > >>> > > >> > > >>> > > >> > > >>> > > >> > Personally I think we must aim on the niches in the market, as > >>> there > >>> > > are > >>> > > >> > the mathematical oriented people, e.g. the broad scientific > >>> > community. > >>> > > >> > > >>> > > >> > Then all people experienced in Excel or other spreadsheets or > >>> > > calculation > >>> > > >> > tools. > >>> > > >> > > >>> > > >> > Schools and universities. Financial and statistical oriented > >>> people. > >>> > > >> > > >>> > > >> > > >>> > > >> > > >>> > > >> > What we should do, IMHO, is > >>> > > >> > > >>> > > >> > - to emphasize the strengths of J, > >>> > > >> > > >>> > > >> > - to improve (considerably) the error handling of J, > >>> > > >> > > >>> > > >> > - to admit the steep learning curve, > >>> > > >> > > >>> > > >> > - to facilitate the use of mnemonics instead of primitives (I > >>> tried > >>> > > this > >>> > > >> > afternoon the primitives.ijs for half an hour, but was not > >>> capable > >>> > of > >>> > > use > >>> > > >> > any mnemonic, not even with > >>> > > >> > https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Primitives_to_Mnemonics) > >>> > > >> > > >>> > > >> > - to decide which of the features, benefits or applications > >>> (of > >>> > > Python) > >>> > > >> we > >>> > > >> > want J to have. > >>> > > >> > > >>> > > >> > > >>> > > >> > > >>> > > >> > > >>> > > >> > > >>> > > >> > Just my 2 cents. > >>> > > >> > > >>> > > >> > R.E. Boss > >>> > > >> > > >>> > > >> > > >>> > > >> > > >>> > > >> > > >>> > > >> > > >>> > > >> > > >>> > > >> > > >>> > > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> > > >> > For information about J forums see > >>> > > http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > >>> > > >> > > >>> > > >> > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> > > >> For information about J forums see > >>> > http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > >>> > > >> > >>> > > > > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> > > > For information about J forums see > >>> http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > >>> > > > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> > > For information about J forums see > >>> http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > >>> > > > >>> > > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> > For information about J forums see > >>> http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > >>> > > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > >>> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. > https://www.avg.com > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
