The first question I’d ask is where are the meter reading being taken from? Pre fader, post fader etc. Also you will want to use Trim in Pro tools, Item volume in reaper, and region gain in logic to bring down the level of the audio file it self not the track fader. > On Jul 27, 2017, at 12:27 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland > <clgillan...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Sorry for the crosspost, but I'm wanting to also put this on PTAccess so we > can approach this from both DAW angles, and to help leverage getting me the > most responses. > > Guys, I asked this question on list about 2 or 3 months ago, and quite > frankly, I never ever got a very direct answer. Everyone who did answer, in > fact, some of which you'd never imagine saying this on the RWP list, told me, > who cares, just use your ears, and let them be your guide. that's not what > I'm seeking here. I really want some true and frank answers here. > > Here's the situation. I am trying to help an incredibly dear friend of mine > start up learning audio production, and by the way, no, it's not the friend I > said who cannot do audio worth a damn. This is someone totally different. > LOL! This guy actually is very very very open to suggestions! > > Anyway, he hasn't done anything at all when it comes to pro grade audio. > > One of the things that we now are working on is microphone lead vocal gain > staging. > > What I'm trying to get him to see is that if you record into your DAW too > hot, you'll start clipping, and even if you don't! clip the vocal track, > leave not enough headroom, and in the long run, you'll clip your master > fader. He gets this concept entirely. > > What we did is, he sent me a recording he did in Reaper. He sent me the stems. > > First, I loaded it up actually in ProTools as it's the DAW I'm most familiar > with. But, the point is, he sent me the unprocessed raw stems which included > his vocal that he initially recorded in Reaper. > > Here's where things went absolutely awri kurfunkity wacko jacko. > > In ProTools, I interacted with the track channel strip that contains his > vocals. Note that right now, I don't have Flowtools installed. Yes, in the > long run, this message is ProTools related even though I'm discussing Reaper > right now. Please please I beg you, stick with me on this! > > In this track strip, I navigated one VO+right arrow passed the output volume > fader for that track, and landed on the peek meter. I have ProTools set where > the peek meters hold infinent until reset. > > On the loudest peek of his vocal, ProTools indicates that he's peeking at > -1DB. So, he's really really really hot! Really no headroom at all. And trust > me. I can hear it too! It sounds God aweful! Even he! agrees it sounds > terrible. How to fix this is another issue in and of itself, but here is the > strange thing that I just! can't! fathom! > > I imported these exact same stem wav files that were created in Reaper, > originally, back into Reaper. > > I then had him, using Osara, go into the peek meter watcher settings with > CTRL+Shift+W. Essentially, we set both combo boxes for first and second track > to follow current. We checked both boxes to watch the tracks. I set it to > hold the meter until reset, which I think was the default radio button value > anyway. > > Finally, when level reaches, I had him set this to minus 12. My reason of > thinking was, if he can come into the DAW from his interface at around > negative 12DB, that gives plenty of headroom, and we then could use a > compressor, or other means later in the mixing phase to get that vocal up in > the mix. > > This is how I was tought to do it with ProTools, or really with any DAW, for > that mind. Record in low, then later adjust and compensate for the gain loss. > - Don't try starting out by going in at a really hot level. > > So, anyway, I then after setting up the meter watcher in Reaper had 'em play > the recording. Because in ProTools, he was peeking at -1DB, I was hoping! > that the peek watcher in Reaper would pick up on this, and would > automatically without him doing anything let him know. Well, nothing happened > at all. Oh, we could hear the clipping all right! Oh baby could we ever! It > sounded disgusting! But, the watcher yielded nothing! > > Finally, In Reaper, I told him, Ronald, try something for me. I told him with > the watcher set, hit W to go to the beginning of the song. Note that his > vocal track only contained 1 item. We then hit space bar to play. As soon as > his vocal started, I let it run for about 20 seconds, then, without pausing, > I had him hit Alt+F9 to query the peek meter on first track. Note that > actually, the vocal was the second track in the project, and his karaoke > music was the first, but he was focused on the second reaper track as being > selected with his arrow keys up and down. I had him try alt+F10 as well for > the second track though, and got the same results, so I don't know that's > entirely our issue. Anyway, both are showeing around -21.9DB for the peek. > Obviously, I then had him hit Alt+F8 to reset the watch meters. > > I don't get it though! Hitting J and K are telling us he's around -21DB as > well. When I had him lower the level in the watcher settings, I told him when > level reaches, instead of putting -12, try some really overexagerated thing > like -30. He did this, created a new track, armed it, started talking in the > mike, and boom! it worked beautifully! It told him right away he had reached > that point or higher. > > So, watcher isn't the issue either, it doesn't appear. > > I don't understand how in the tarnation he could be peeking at -1 within > ProTools, yet, bring him into Reaper, regardless mac or Windows, now, that > exact same level is showing -21.9. I could see maybe the two DAWS being a DB > or 2 different in either direction, so like, I could see -1, and maybe -2.5. > or -1, and 0.5. but not no -1, and 21.9. That's like a 28DB difference, which > is really damn steep! > > OK, let's go back to what I said, yeah yeah, I know, use your ears, they're > your best judge. I'm sorry. I don't now, nor will I ever! adapt that concept > entirely. I'm sorry, I just won't do it! Maybe now, I'm! the stubborn one > here, but I feel very very strongly that regardless what you're recording, it > is ab, suh, lootly! paramount! that you know egg? zactly! where you sit in > your mix with your meters. How else're you gonna get your gain staging > correct? Sure you can listen, but, you're not always gonna hear certain > things audibly that your meters could actually clue you in upon. So no! > You'll never! catch me saying meters shouldn't be used. Seems a lot on the > RWP list feel that way, that meters really don't matter. Call me an > extremist, but... Really? > > But seriously, what on earth am I doing wrong in both DAWS put together with > the workflow? Regardless recording, or playing back, I'm getting that much > difference in meter readouts between the two. > > Do the meters change drasticly from one DAW to another? By that I mean, where > 1 DAW may consider a signal to be -minus 12, does another possibly see it at > a different value? Again, I could see the meters being calabrated a little > offset from each other, but God bless America, land that I love! -12 vs. > -21.9 just call it -28? I'm sorry, but good! greif! > That seems a bit much. That's enough difference in fluctuation that I > question where levels really are! sitting in the mix truly. > > In Reaper, if you hit CTRL+P, are there settings within preferences which > might effect this, and how those meters are actually showing up? > > Same goes with ProTools, are there any settings in preferences that would > cause there to be this much difference in calibration from Reaper? > > Ultimately, what I'd want is for the meters in both DAWS to be as dang close > to one another as possible. I know they may not be exact, I get it, but can > we not get them within say 1 or 2 DB's difference? Otherwise, I really don't > know what! I'm coming in at, and, neither does he. For me, this is a > dealbreaker. I refuse attimantly to use Reaper until I can figure this out. > If I can't read my meters, then it's a done deal! Period! I'll then just > stick with PT entirely, and will try figuring out a way to get him started on > PT. > > Chris. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Pro Tools Accessibility" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to ptaccess+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > <mailto:ptaccess+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>.
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