And just to follow up because I don't think this made it out to python-committers, the questions Victor brought up are all part of what the conduct WG is thinking about while we start ramping up on things. Once the WG has gotten things to a point that we think it's ready to provide e.g. enforcement guidelines, reporting, etc. then we will come back here to the team and bring this up again (hopefully in the next couple of months, but usual "we're all volunteers" caveat applies ;) .
On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 at 08:45, Carol Willing <willi...@gmail.com> wrote: > Brian, thanks for a very well written response, and Victor, thanks for > asking for clarification. > > I think Brian has covered my thoughts very thoroughly. As an FYI, Brett, > Thomas Wouters, and I are on the Code of Conduct workgroup so the core devs > are represented. > > > > On Oct 17, 2018, at 8:34 AM, Brian Curtin <br...@python.org> wrote: > > > > On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 8:04 AM Victor Stinner <vstin...@redhat.com> > wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I see more and more discussions about the moderation of the Python > community. > > > > There is a PSF "conduct" Working Group: > > https://wiki.python.org/psf/ConductWG/Charter > > > > I noticed the following questions: > > > > * Lack of transparency on how moderation is decided > > * Lack of transparency on the number of received Code of Conduct > > incidents: maybe start to produce "Code of Conduct transparency > > report"? (If such reports already exist, I'm sorry, I wasn't aware > > :-)) > > * Should the PSF conduct-WG handle conflicts between core developers? > > > > Would it be possible to write down rules to formalize the moderation? > > > > Yes. For any medium applying a code of conduct there should be some > guidelines applicable to said medium for how things are handled. > > > > To get this out of the way early, as the author of the current CoC, it > intentionally doesn't prescribe any specific moderation because it depends > on how and where it's applied given the people and tools available. > Moderating Discourse might be different than moderating a mailing list > which is different than a bug tracker. > > > > For example: > > > > * First try to contact the author of an incident and warn them? Only > > take an action immediately for exceptional cases like obvious spam? > > * Maybe define numbers for ban: 1 week, then 3 months, then 6 months, > > then 1 year? I would prefer to never ban someone forever. People can > > change. > > * Scope: does the moderationg apply to *any* public space? Or only to > > a restricted list like: mailing lists and bug tracker? What about > > Twitter and conferences? > > > > For conferences, there are specific codes of conduct and applicable > event handling guides that go with them, and I would just leave that area > alone from this angle. I don't know that we should start meddling with > conferences; leave that up to organizers who are dedicated to that and in > several cases have actual training on this topic. > > > > Twitter can't even moderate itself, but I don't think that makes it > anyone here's job. > > > > I would scope moderation to any spaces provided by or for this group, so > tracker, mailing lists, GitHub, Discourse, and I think that's it? I don't > really know if IRC and Zulip are still in play. > > > > * Should the incidents which occur in the private space be handled as > > well? Bullying can occur in the private space. > > > > We can't police everything, but I think handling private issues within > the space of PSF resources (or whatever the governing body of what we're > talking about is) is to be expected. For example, if I harass you via a > private message on Discourse, that is a situation to be handled here. It > doesn't need to go to everyone's inbox for it to be a problem we need to > handle. > > > > I don't know that you can moderate other private things—private in the > meaning of "PSF provided or not"—though. If I send you an inappropriate > email just between you and I, that's between us and our email providers. I > think it might be overstepping this group's bounds for you to say I can't > use the bug tracker for a month due to something I did entirely outside of > the scope of said group. It feels similar to some corporate policies, where > if I'm inappropriate to you when I see you at the grocery store, that's not > really the company's problem, but if I'm like that at our team dinner then > it is a problem. > > > > There probably does exist some threshold where out-of-scope behavior > crosses to where someone isn't welcome, but I don't know that it's > generally quantifiable. That's probably something for a council or triad or > working group to discuss on a case-by-case basis as it's above and beyond a > reasonable range of behaviors that this group can have their eye on. > > > > * How to handle conflict between core developers? Not directly related > > to the code of conduct. > > > > If it's not CoC related conflict, do you mean conflict related to code, > as in technical conflict over implementation details? I think we naturally > have a few mediators in this case depending on the level of where it > occurs. Release managers, delegates for PEPs, code area experts, and then I > think there are a few who act in such a way due to longevity with the > project. > > > > If we're looking for people to be specifically identified as mediators, > we have a bunch of good ones around here. > > > > I'm not interested for work on such rules. I'm not sure neither if > > it's the role of the Python core developers to propose something. > > Maybe the PSF conduct WG should propose something, or even decide > > directly? > > > > Is anyone from this group on said working group? If not, I don't think > they should be wholesale deciding guidelines for a group they're not a part > of. They would seem to be a group of people we should work with as they've > presumably come up with other guidelines and could be a useful set of > people to help shape things. > > > > Handling conflicts between core developers is the most difficult > > question. I don't think that it's the role of the conduct working > > group to handle that. Moreover, the Code of Conduct should be seen as > > a way to evict a core developer out of Python. The Code of Conduct is > > supposed to protect members of the Python community against people who > > misbehave. But I'm unable to describe the limit between "misbehave" > > and "conflict" between two developers. > > > > It is unfortunate that conflict—which can be a healthy thing for a > team—is potentially reaching past this toward misbehavior. A lot of > developers, especially those of us involved in open source, come into this > type of work with strong opinions. When they're too strongly held, we can > go beyond productive conflict and end with one or more of us finding ways > of avoiding that topic (work on other areas), avoiding further conflict at > all (only work on easier bugs), and possibly onto misbehavior, none of > which are healthy for the team. > > > > I think this type of issue is better solved internally to our team, > perhaps via some form of mediator(s) I mentioned earlier, rather than > involving a wholly external group. Time is of course a finite resource in > open source, and people work is often/usually harder than code work, but I > think we do have some people around who care about the success of the > project to spend time mediating these kinds of conflicts so that we keep > everyone involved and solve whatever problem at hand in a satisfactory > manner. > > > > My main concern is that the PSF conduct WG should not be seen as a > > threat to core developers. > > > > I don't think it should be used that way, but I also know nothing about > it and have heard nothing from it. > > _______________________________________________ > > python-committers mailing list > > python-committers@python.org > > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers > > Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ > > _______________________________________________ > python-committers mailing list > python-committers@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers > Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ >
_______________________________________________ python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
