On 7 August 2015 at 03:28, Donald Stufft <don...@stufft.io> wrote: > >> On Aug 6, 2015, at 5:04 AM, Robert Collins <robe...@robertcollins.net> wrote: >> >> Yes: but the logic chain from 'its a bad idea' to 'we don't include >> wheel but we do include setuptools' is the bit I'm having a hard time >> with. > > > In my opinion, it’s the severity of how crippled their experience is without > that particular thing installed. > > In the case of wheel not being installed they lose the ability to have an > implicit wheel cache and to run ``pip wheel``. This makes pip less good but, > unless they are running ``pip wheel`` everything is still fully functioning. > > In the case of setuptools they lose the ability to ``pip install`` when there > isn’t a wheel available and the ability to run ``pip wheel``. This is making > pip completely unusable for a lot of people, and if we did not pre-install > setup tools the number one thing people would do is to ``pip install > setuptools``, most likely while bitching under their breath about the command > that just failed because they tried to install from sdist. > > So it’s really just “how bad are we going to break people’s expectations”.
So - I was in a talk at PyCon AU about conda[*], and the author believed they were using the latest pip with all the latest caching features, but their experience (16 minute installs) wasn't that. I dug into that with them after the talk, and it was due to Conda not installing wheel by default. Certainly the framing of ensurepip as 'this installs pip' is going to be confusing and misleading if it doesn't install pip the way get-pip.py (or virtualenv) install pip, leading to confusion such as that. Given the inconsequential impact of installing wheel, I see only harm in holding it back, and only benefits in adding it. All the harm from having source builds comes in with setuptools ;). -Rob *) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fqknoni5aX0 -- Robert Collins <rbtcoll...@hp.com> Distinguished Technologist HP Converged Cloud _______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com