As the instigator here, I think it's my duty to clarify my intent on a
few things.
On 24/02/2020 08:49, Ethan Furman wrote:
On 02/23/2020 03:01 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
But I am part of this community, and if I'm too scared to state my
opinions for fear of retaliation, then I'm not really part of the
community, the supposed community values of being open and welcoming is
a sham, and it's best if I find out now.
I have no problems at all with you stating your mind about this, Steven.
Just in case that was relevant to anyone else :-)
That's pretty much what you said then. Have you not returned to that
mailing list because you no longer feel like part of the community?
I seem to remember saying at the time that if I'd received the message
for Steven as it was stated in public, I would not show up on bended
knee as a supplicant as it appeared to demand.
Rhodri James wrote:
------------------
Language, sunshine.
Steven D'Aprano wrote:
---------------------
What about it? Just for the record, I had no issues with Soni's
language, but
I do object to attempts to shame him for it.
Ethan Furman wrote:
------------------
Since when is simply drawing one's attention to something shaming?
Steven explains:
---------------
Of course drawing attention to something can often be shaming and a
disguised attack:
"You're fat. He's filthy. She's promiscuous. Your language is
unacceptable and bad (and by implication, so are you)."
Having attention drawn to your social transgression is shaming. That's
why we do it: to stop people from transgressing again.
To me, "shaming" also requires a certain amount of meanness or cruelty (the
"attack" part), often suggested by the tone or body language of the person
commenting. Hopefully we are all aware that tone is hard to achieve in the
written word, especially across continents and language barriers; body
language is, of course, completely absent.
I did not intend meanness. I absolutely did intend rebuke; at the time
Soni was one poorly worded post away from my killfile, and I had
seriously considered reporting several previous posts for CoC
violations. The only reason I didn't was that I was under the
impression that the list admins had seen those posts and chosen not to
react to them in public. To be honest, I probably wouldn't have cared
about the language had Soni not been on such thin ice with me already.
As Steven correctly picked up, "Sunshine", "Sunny Jim" and the like are
unfriendly "polite" nicknames in British English usage. Sorry, but it
didn't even occur to me that I needed to explain that. My bad.
"Evening, sunshine," is the sort of thing you expect a police constable
to see just ahead of "You're nicked." It does not denote any goodwill
towards the subject whatsoever. Think of the US Deep South; when the
"Bless your heart"s come out, you know the speaker is really angry.
In fact, when I first read Rhodri's post I thought it meant something along
the lines of: programming language -> pie in the sky perfection.
Hence, it is possible to be too terse.
Yes, definitely my bad. Sorry about that.
If not, Soni's language shouldn't even be an issue and Rhodri's rebuke
was unnecessary.
We'll have to agree to disagree on whether Rhodri's post was a rebuke or a
reminder.
It was a rebuke. I felt (and still feel) that Soni's behaviour needed
rebuking quite hard. This merely happened to be the point at which I
could join the conversation. Compared to what I believe was deserved
this was a mild rebuke, but it was definitely a rebuke.
--
Rhodri James *-* Kynesim Ltd
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