On Feb 11, 4:24 am, Steve Holden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > On Feb 11, 1:35?am, Steve Holden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > [...] > >>>> After all, they have already given freely and generously, and if they > >>>> choose > >>>> not to give more on top of that, it's really up to them. > >>> Right. Get people to commit and then abandon them. Nice. > >> Anyone who committed to Python did so without being battered by a > >> multi-million dollar advertising campaign. > > > Multi-million dollar ad campaigns mean nothing to me. > > I committed to Python because it's a great language. > > I've dabbled in perl, Visual BASIC, UBASIC, REXX, Java, > > Scheme, C and C++ but Python is the one I use. > > Yes, but your decision must surely have been an informed one, and there > must surely be reasons why Python remains your choice. > > > > > > >> The Python Software > >> Foundation has only recently dipped its toes in the advocacy waters, > >> with results that are still under evaluation. And the use of the > >> Microsoft "free" VC6 SDK was never a part of the "official" means of > >> producing Python or its extensions, it was a community-developed > >> solution to the lack of availability of a free VS-compatible compilation > >> system for extension modules. > > >> I agree that there are frustrations involved with maintaining extension > >> modules on the Windows platform without having a copy of Visual Studio > >> (of the correct version) available. One of the reasons Python still uses > >> an outdated version of VS is to avoid forcing people to upgrade. Any > >> such decision will have fallout. > > > Such as anyone who tries to get in the game late. > > I'm afraid it does seem to work out like that, yes. > > >> An update is in the works for those > >> using more recent releases, > > > That's good news, although the responsible thing > > to do was not relaease version 2.5 until such issues > > are resolved. > > Well that would be an issue for the release team. I'm not sure what > Anthony Baxter (the release manager) would have to say in response to > this point.
Possibly something like: "I realize you're a Windows user, and a Windows user with an AOL email address at that, so it may come as a shock to learn that the computer industry doesn't start and finish on Windows. I don't see why the needs of Windows users like yourself should come ahead of the needs of users on Mac OS, Linux, Solaris, etc." - Steven D'Arpano I would hope that it would instead be that the needs of all users are equal. > > >> but that won't help users who don't have > >> access to Visual Studio. > > > That can be solved by throwing money at the problem. > > But money doesn't help when the solution is on the > > far side of the moon. > > I see your problem, but I don't know what I can do to help you. Well, that was the point of this, to get people to see the problem. > There > were also, as I remember it, issues with the updated version of Visual > Studio being non-conformant with standards in some significant way, but > I never took part in the discussions on those issues. > > >>>> Yes, it's > >>>> occasionally very frustrating to the rest of us, but that's life. > >>> As the Kurds are well aware. > >> I really don't think you help your argument by trying to draw parallels > >> between the problems of compiler non-availability and those of a > >> population subject to random genocide. > > > You missed the point of the analogy. > > Perhaps because it wasn't a very good one? > > > > > > > The US government suggested to the oppressed tribes > > in Iraq that they should rise up and overthrow > > Saddam Hussein at the end of the first Gulf War. > > And what did the US government do when they rose up? > > Nothing. They were left to twist in the wind. > > >> Try to keep things in perspective, please. > > > See if you can see the similarity. > > > I buy into Python. I spend a lot of effort > > developing a math library based on GMPY to use > > in my research. I discover a bug in GMPY and > > actually go to a lot of effort and solve it. > > But _I_ can't even use it because I've been > > left to twist in the wind by the fact that > > Python 2.5 for Windows was built with an > > obsolete compiler that's not even available. > > > Luckily, unlike the Kurds, my situation had > > a happy ending, someone else compiled the fixed > > GMPY source and made a 2.5 Windows version > > available. But can anyone say what will happen > > the next time? > > Presumably not. I presume you have been reporting your bugs through the > Sourceforge project to keep the developers in touch with the issues you > have found? Last time I tried, it didn't work and e-mail to the maintainer didn't get any response. > Normally a package's maintainers will produce updated > installers, Unless they have stopped doing Windows developement as part of their job as is the case with GMPY. Luckily, there's someone out there who does create Windows binaries. > but this behaviour is unreliable and (no pun intended) > patchy sometimes. > > > > > > >>>> The best I feel I can do is raise these things on occasion, > >>>> on the off-chance that I manage to catch the attention of > >>>> someone who is > >>>> altruistic, knowledgeable, and who has some spare time on > >>>> their hands! > >>> Someone who, say, solved the memory leak in the GMPY > >>> divm() function even though he had no way of compiling > >>> the source code? > >>> Just think of what such an altruistic, knowedgeable > >>> person could do if he could use the current VC compiler > >>> or some other legally available compiler. > >> Your efforts would probably be far better spent trying to build a > >> back-end for mingw or some similar system into Python's development > >> system, to allow Python for Windows to be built on a regular rather than > >> a one-off basis using a completely open source tool chain. > > > No, as I said elsewhere, I'm not a software developer, > > I'm an amateur math researcher. My efforts are best spent > > as an actual end user to find and report bugs that the > > developers never see. Remember, a programmer, because he > > wrote it, only _thinks_ he knows how the program works. > > Whereas I, the user, _know_ how it works. > > >> The fact that the current maintainers of the Windows side of Python > >> choose to use a commercial tool to help them isn't something I am going > >> to try and second-guess. To do so would be to belittle efforts I would > >> have no way of duplicating myself, and I have far too much respect for > >> those efforts to do so. > > > And I respect those efforts too. What I don't respect > > is irresponsible behaviour. > > >> There are published ways to build extension modules for Windows using > >> mingw, by the way - have you tried any of them? > > > Yeah, and got nowhere. > > >> It's much harder than sniping on a newsgroup, > > > That figures. You try and contribute and you get > > accused of being a troll. > > I wasn't accusing you of being a troll, rather bemoaning your (in my > opinion) less-than-constructive tone. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. > The points you raise are > important, and I do feel that there ought to be easier solutions for > people in your position. That's all I'm asking for is for others to appreciate the situation. > > >> but you earn rather more kudos. > > > Guess what kudos I got for solving the GMPY divm() > > problem? None. How much effort would it have been > > to mention my contribution in the source code > > comments (as was the case for other contributers)? > > Not that I'm bitter, after all, I'm altruistic. > > I'm sure if you've made a contribution to the code you only have to ask > for your name to be added as a contributor to be mentioned in the source. That wasn't important, I'm not that petty. It was simply a real-world example. > > > By the way, on the sci.math newsgroup I promote > > Python every chance I get. One fellow thanked me > > profusely for recommending Python & GMPY and asked > > for some help with a program he was having problems > > with. We worked it out fine but his problem made me > > suspect there may be more bugs in GMPY. What's my > > motivation for tracking them down? > > The satisfaction of a job well done? What's my motivation for acting as > a director of the Python Software Foundation when I get accusations of > irresponsibility? I apologize. But I hope you see how this appears from the outside, that the PSF doesn't give a rat's ass about Windows users with AOL addresses. Sure, that's wrong, but calling people who bring up these points whiny leeches doesn't do anything to dispell that notion. > Anyway, thanks for taking the time to help maintain gmpy. Thanks, I try to help as much as I can. I'm a little sensitive about gmpy because without it, I would have to abandon Python and I don't want to abandon Python. > > This thread is starting to make me think that there's a case to be made > for somehow providing supported build facilities for third-party > extension modules. And the untouchables would greatly appreciate it. > > This wouldn't be a simple project, but since there's a Windows buildbot > for Python there's no reason why the same couldn't be done for > extensions. I'll raise this with the PSF and see what the response is: > then your carping will at least have had some positive effect ;-) > > Stick with it, and let's try to make things better. Ok. > > regards > Steve > -- > Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119 > Holden Web LLC/Ltd http://www.holdenweb.com > Skype: holdenweb http://del.icio.us/steve.holden > Blog of Note: http://holdenweb.blogspot.com > See you at PyCon? http://us.pycon.org/TX2007 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list