On Mon, Jan 05, 2009 at 01:23:04PM -0500, Steve Holden wrote: > Even if they really are small-minded or stupid I agree this wouldn't be > helpful behavior. But neither would your characterization of Python's > assignment model as "bizarre" (even ignoring that you SHOUTED IT AT US), > and I have yet to see you admit that such a characterization was, shall > we say, inappropriate.
Actually I did, in one of my two most recent posts. But as Steve D'Arpano just pointed out (even though he clearly disagreed with me), such a characterization is subjective, and as such you can't rightly say it's inappropriate. That's the largest part of my point in posting in this thread. Many folks do exactly that, very often. Someone disagrees with you, tries to shed some light on a different perspective, or simply fails to understand something, and some members of this community treat them like heretics, fools, or criminals. I understand why the assignment model works the way it does, and it's quite sensible, *when you understand it*. However, I do also think that to someone who has not encountered such a model before, and who has not had it explained to them, and/or who has not the background to understand why it is implemented that way, it very likely might seem "markedly unusual in appearance, style, or general character and often involving incongruous or unexpected elements;" as dictionary.com defines the term bizarre. So no, I don't think that's a mischaracterization at all. As for using the term in all caps, I did so precisely because it was clear to me that many people here think that it could not be unusual, and I wanted to emphasize the fact that other perspectives exist... That they are not the same as yours does not invalidate them! > It takes little to admit one is in the wrong even when one isn't. I've > had to learn to do it because I often *am* wrong about things. Could you > be persuaded to consider the possibility that you met with a somewhat > hostile reaction (whether or not such a reaction was useful or > necessary) because you were, in a small way, poking people in the side > with a sharp stick? I fully expected to receive a hostile reaction, because I am criticising the behavior of the collective, and supplying a dissenting perspective -- something I knew from the start would trigger such hostility *because it always does*. I have witnessed hostile reactions time and time again in this forum, from some of the same people who are dumping on me for suggesting that the assignment model might be something other than obvious, and from others, for much less: I expect it because I see it in response to nothing more than asking a simple question, when the question displays a clear indication that the poster has missed something critical preventing them from understanding how to achieve their goals. My intent was exactly to point out this behavior, in an attempt to call to people's attention that it is what they are doing, and thereby discourage it. I fully expected a negative response. You in particular have responded quite well, but the rest of the community by and large has sadly not failed to live up to my expectations, even in the face of me saying that that is exactly what they are doing. Quite impressive. Some of the comments from people include the idea that the assignment model is nothing special, if you've encountered any one of a dozen other languages. I didn't realize programming in any of those languages was a prerequisite for posting questions here, or for programming with Python. And that speaks to my ultimate point: Some members of the community seem to make assumptions about what people know or should know, or have experienced, and talk down to people who haven't met their expectations. They meet different perspectives with hostility. Posts which phrase questions in terms commonly used in other programming paradigms are generally even more likely to be met with that same hostility, when they could simply instead explain politely that Python behaves according to a different model than what they are used to. Often this happens, but too often not without someone also letting the OP know what a mindless jerk he is... *This* is the "common understanding" which I'd hoped could be reached... But you were right... it's very difficult for people to admit that they might be wrong. -- Derek D. Martin http://www.pizzashack.org/ GPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D
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