* Jon Clements:
Inline reply:
On 28 Oct, 11:49, "Alf P. Steinbach" <al...@start.no> wrote:
* Jon Clements:
On 28 Oct, 08:58, "Alf P. Steinbach" <al...@start.no> wrote:
[snip]
Without reference to an OS you can't address any of the issues that a beginner
has to grapple with, including most importantly tool usage, without which it's
not even possible to get started, but also, very importantly, a file system.
Learning programming without tools and without using files (or only using the
common denominator for file systems in OSes X, Y and Z) is sort of vacuous...
In addition there's the motivational factor.
I certainly agree that focusing on Windows, you may be able to suggest
certain tools. IDE's, RAD environments, etc...
I'm more thinking of things like the command interpreter.
It's rather different in Windows and *nix.
Yes, but not to the point it's required to make a massive distinction.
'python myfile.py' will work whatever... This isn't meant to be
'shell' scripting / system administration documentation :)
Still there's so much difference between Windows and *nix both in standard tools
available and in conventions employed for e.g. paths, filenames, text
representation etc. that it's two different worlds: what works here doesn't work
there and vice versa. C and C++ suffer from being designed for *nix (e.g. in C++
this is a problem for 'main' arguments, for filenames in the standard library
and for iostreams); it seems Python is better designed or is a better fit for
the modern kind of environment so to speak but I haven't got that far yet...
The first exploratory programs a novice makes almost have to be text-oriented,
thus, some exposure to the command interpreter from the start. And most
programming languages' text i/o facilities, including those of Python, are
oriented towards standard streams and redirection of them, done from some
command interpreter. And most Windows users, those who'd like to learn
programming, know nothing about that, so unless they learn in a setting with
knowledgable people around, it needs to be addressed in the text they're using.
I've found the average Windows user (even Uni. students studying
programming) are somewhat amazed at the black window with white text
that pops up when they run cmd.exe. My favourite comment thus far is,
"Hey, it's like really dark and stuff, and it knows my name, is that
good?" :)
He he. Can I quote that? It's really good. :-)
[snip]
However, since ActivePython is said here to be just be CPython + packaging +
stuff, I don't think there's any point in suggesting CPython, except perhaps to
get version 3.x but that would currently have its own problems wrt. libraries
and such, wouldn't it?
Libraries are moving towards the 3.* series. The development team have
provided tools to assist in migrating, but yes, it's not going to be a
smooth ride. I think the Python development team, and the timelines
planned, are brilliant - take for instance the Boost libraries, of
which some are only making it into the C++200X or whatever now.
I'm thinking about switching the text over to Python 3.x.
That's because I discovered that even the division operator has changed, and
that xrange() is no more, with range() now playing that rôle, rendering my naïve
attempts at writing sort of forward-compatible code very moot.
It's not just a new version, it's a new language.
And yes I now installed CPython (is that the right name?) v. 3.1.1 and it was a
*very* pleasant surprise compared to other ported *nix software I've installed.
That is, it was much like ActivePython, just an ordinary Windows installer. It
even has CHM format documentation! :-)
SomeOne(TM) should better look at the IDLE environment, though. When
single-steopping in that debugger one has to click on the source window after
each step in order to see the highlighting of the current source code line. I
guess this is due to ordinary text selection being used for the highlighting,
and a difference between *nix and Windows in how that's shown (or in Windows not
shown) for an inactive window.
But anyway, much thanks, I think now perhaps 2.6 was a bad choice of mine, even
though it's recommended for beginners and seems logical...
Cheers,
- Alf
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