I disagree, and would argue that fails to take a systemic view of this kind of behaviour.
If individual commentators are acerbic and are only privately reprimanded, from the perspective of everyone else it looks like the acerbic reply was A-OK. Someone said something unnecessarily hostile and the response was...nada. That creates an environment where there are no clear examples of what crosses a line and no clear expectation that moderation is even a thing that happens. Indeed, I was shocked to discover this list _was_ moderated precisely because all I see is people being mean and nothing much else happening. I would much rather a system where there is some sort of public notice. It doesn't have to be identifying. Just "after a couple of replies that did not follow our guidelines I have put some members of this list on moderation, meaning that they must have their posts cleared before being sent out. A reminder that we have certain standards here and etc etc etc" On 25 January 2016 at 12:50, Duncan Murdoch <murdoch.dun...@gmail.com> wrote: > On 25/01/2016 12:35 PM, John Sorkin wrote: >> >> When we read acerbic replies we should remind the poster to reply in a >> more moderate tone. > > As long as you do this in private, not on the list, I wouldn't object. (I'd > hope I wouldn't even know about it.) Doing it on the list is more likely to > lead to flame wars than to improved behaviour. > > As others have suggested, if you think someone has been mistreated, then the > public remedy should be to treat them well by giving a better answer > yourself. > > Duncan Murdoch > >> On the other hand noting that the list is not intended to be a source >> of answers to home work questions is 100% appropriate. This philosophy is >> intended both to keep the list from being flooded with questions and to make >> sure that no student has an unfair advantage. >> John >> >> > John David Sorkin M.D., Ph.D. >> > Professor of Medicine >> > Chief, Biostatistics and Informatics >> > University of Maryland School of Medicine Division of Gerontology and >> > Geriatric Medicine >> > Baltimore VA Medical Center >> > 10 North Greene Street >> > GRECC (BT/18/GR) >> > Baltimore, MD 21201-1524 >> > (Phone) 410-605-7119 >> > (Fax) 410-605-7913 (Please call phone number above prior to faxing) >> >> >> > On Jan 25, 2016, at 12:17 PM, Ted Harding <ted.hard...@wlandres.net> >> > wrote: >> > >> > My feelings exactly! (And since quite some time ago). >> > Ted. >> > >> >> On 25-Jan-2016 12:23:16 Fowler, Mark wrote: >> >> I'm glad to see the issue of negative feedback addressed. I can >> >> especially >> >> relate to the 'cringe' feeling when reading some authoritarian backhand >> >> to a >> >> new user. We do see a number of obviously inappropriate or overly lazy >> >> postings, but I encounter far more postings where I don't feel >> >> competent to >> >> judge their merit. It might be better to simply disregard a posting one >> >> does >> >> not like for some reason. It might also be worthwhile to actively >> >> counter >> >> negative feedback when we experience that 'cringing' moment. I'm not >> >> thinking >> >> to foster contention, but simply to provide some tangible reassurance >> >> to new >> >> users, and not just the ones invoking the negative feedback, that a >> >> particular respondent may not represent the perspective of the list. >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: R-help [mailto:r-help-boun...@r-project.org] On Behalf Of Michael >> >> Friendly >> >> Sent: January 24, 2016 5:43 PM >> >> To: Jean-Luc Dupouey; r-help@r-project.org >> >> Subject: Re: [R] R-help mailing list activity / R-not-help? >> >> >> >> >> >>> On 1/23/2016 7:28 AM, Jean-Luc Dupouey wrote: >> >>> Dear members, >> >>> >> >>> Not a technical question: >> >> But one worth raising... >> >>> >> >>> The number of threads in this mailing list, following a long period of >> >>> increase, has been regularly and strongly decreasing since 2010, >> >>> passing from more than 40K threads to less than 11K threads last year. >> >>> The trend is similar for most of the "ancient" mailing lists of the >> >>> R-project. >> >> [snip ...] >> >>> >> >>> I hope it is the wright place to ask this question. Thanks in advance, >> >> >> >> In addition to the other replies, there is another trend I've seen that >> >> has >> >> actively worked to suppress discussion on R-help and move it elsewhere. >> >> The >> >> general things: >> >> - R-help was too unwieldy and so it was a good idea to hive-off >> >> specialized >> >> topics to various sub lists, R-SIG-Mac, R-SIG-Geo, etc. >> >> - Many people posted badly-formed questions to R-help, and so it was a >> >> good >> >> idea to develop and refer to the posting guide to mitigate the number >> >> of >> >> purely junk postings. >> >> >> >> <rant> >> >> Yet, the trend I've seen is one of increasing **R-not-help**, in that >> >> there >> >> are many posts, often by new R users who get replies that not >> >> infrequently >> >> range from just mildly off-putting to actively hostile: >> >> >> >> - Is this homework? We don't do homework (sometimes false alarms, where >> >> the >> >> OP has to reply to say it is not) >> >> - Didn't you bother to do your homework, RTFM, or Google? >> >> - This is off-topic because XXX (e.g., it is not strictly an R >> >> programming >> >> question). >> >> - You asked about doing XXX, but this is a stupid thing to want to do. >> >> - Don't ask here; you need to talk to a statistical consultant. >> >> >> >> I find this sad in a public mailing list sent to all R-help subscribers >> >> and I >> >> sometimes cringe when I read replies to people who were actually trying >> >> to >> >> get help with some R-related problem, but expressed it badly, didn't >> >> know >> >> exactly what to ask for, or how to format it, or somehow motivated a >> >> frequent-replier to publicly dis the OP. >> >> >> >> On the other hand, I still see a spirit of great generosity among some >> >> people >> >> who frequently reply to R-help, taking a possibly badly posed or >> >> ill-formatted question, and going to some lengths to provide a a >> >> helpful >> >> answer of some sort. I applaud those who take the time and effort to >> >> do >> >> this. >> >> >> >> I use R in a number of my courses, and used to advise students to post >> >> to >> >> R-help for general programming questions (not just homework) they >> >> couldn't >> >> solve. I don't do this any more, because several of them reported a >> >> negative >> >> experience. >> >> >> >> In contrast, in the Stackexchange model, there are numerous sublists >> >> cross-classified by their tags. If I have a specific knitr, ggplot2, >> >> LaTeX, >> >> or statistical modeling question, I'm now more likely to post it there, >> >> and >> >> the worst that can happen is that no one "upvotes" it or someone >> >> (helpfully) >> >> marks it as a duplicate of a similar question. >> >> But comments there are not propagated to all subscribers, and those who >> >> reply >> >> helpfully, can see their solutions accepted or not, or commented on in >> >> that >> >> specific topic. >> >> >> >> Perhaps one solution would be to create a new "R-not-help" list where, >> >> as in >> >> a Monty Python skit, people could be directed there to be insulted and >> >> all >> >> these unhelpful replies could be sent. >> >> >> >> A milder alternative is to encourage some R-help subscribers to click >> >> the >> >> "Don't send" or "Save" button and think better of their replies. >> >> </rant> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Michael Friendly Email: friendly AT yorku DOT ca >> >> Professor, Psychology Dept. & Chair, Quantitative Methods >> >> York University Voice: 416 736-2100 x66249 Fax: 416 736-5814 >> >> 4700 Keele Street Web: http://www.datavis.ca >> >> Toronto, ONT M3J 1P3 CANADA >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------- >> > E-Mail: (Ted Harding) <ted.hard...@wlandres.net> >> > Date: 25-Jan-2016 Time: 17:14:06 >> > This message was sent by XFMail >> > >> > ______________________________________________ >> > R-help@r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see >> > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help >> > PLEASE do read the posting guide >> > http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html >> > and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. >> >> Confidentiality Statement: >> This email message, including any attachments, is for ...{{dropped:7}} > > > ______________________________________________ > R-help@r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help > PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html > and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. -- Oliver Keyes Count Logula Wikimedia Foundation ______________________________________________ R-help@r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.