Forgot to mention the customs. No, we didn't. I simply sent him a photo of me on a bike whose fit I liked, and then discussed general fit and handling qualities. We ended up in all 3 cases with 8 cm extensions (and 56.5 or 57 tts with 73* seat tubes). (Note: the 1994/5 required a custom stem (it was a 54 c-c; Grant said "don't tell anyone, but hey) -- this was before Riv carried the Tech or Tallux -- but the effective extension was 8 cm.)
For the record, if I were buying a bike and if Grant and I had discussed handling qualities, and further, if Grant had agreed to build me something with my desired handling qualities, and further yet, if Grant declared, "I shall build you the bike of your dreams, and said bike of dreams shall use a stem with a 1 cm extension, the which I shall supply to you; be at peace": I would sit back in great contentment and anticipate the bike with nary a qualm. But I'd have to have Grant's personal word about it. On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 6:33 PM, Patrick Moore <bertin...@gmail.com> wrote: > It's not a matter of fitting systems, scientific or otherwise, but of > weight distribution, handling, and overall feel and comfort. To take the > Sam Hill as the example, my choices were limited to using a stem long > enough to keep the weight distribution and handling and feel normal, or to > use such a short stem that these qualities were compromised, or to have the > bar too high. > > I realize that the seat tube angle plays a role here, but I am considering > only such cases where this variable has been taken into account and you are > still left with a reach from saddle (which has to be positioned first of > all, with all other variables determined in respect of this one) to bar (of > choice; again this one is another variable) that is too long. > > In short, again with my Sam Hill, with saddle in place, bar of choice (46 > cm Noodle), and bar height of choice (no more than 1" above saddle) the tt > was simply too long without using a stem so short that I anticipated (I did > not try a 6 cm stem) problems. (One of which would have been simply > finding a stem so short but with a long enough quill.) > > > On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 6:25 PM, Deacon Patrick <lamontg...@mac.com> wrote: > >> Which, for a simple system that seems to be a lot more accurate than the >> fancy "scientific" fitting schema out there, seems pretty impressive to me. >> Have you had this conversation with Grant when working on your customs? >> >> With abandon, >> Patrick >> >> >> On Monday, April 7, 2014 6:11:58 PM UTC-6, Patrick Moore wrote: >> >>> OK, that is true, but as you say within limits. I run 8 cm stems on the >>> 56 1/2 cm tt'd Rivs (I forgot the Ram: it has a 57 cm tt, and I use a 9, >>> but the 42 cm Noodles sweep back a cm or 2). When you start needing 6 cm >>> stems, something is less than ideal. >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 6:09 PM, Deacon Patrick <lamon...@mac.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Sure it can, within the limits of stem length options. >>>> >>>> With abandon, >>>> Patrick >>>> >>>> >>>> On Monday, April 7, 2014 6:06:45 PM UTC-6, Patrick Moore wrote: >>>> >>>>> This only works if bar height is the accommodating variable. If you >>>>> want your bar at a certain pre-determined height in relation to the >>>>> saddle, >>>>> then Grant's system doesn't work. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 6:00 PM, Deacon Patrick <lamon...@mac.com>wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> George, I'm confused. Help me understand how #1 puts you at odds >>>>>> with Grant and Riv on their frame sizing criteria. As I understand it you >>>>>> just perfectly illustrated why their frame size criteria is PBH (then >>>>>> height to dial in cockpit), not height. This is precisely how they worked >>>>>> with me when I called them. I pointed out the frame they recommended was >>>>>> one size up from the charts online. Grant said something to the effect >>>>>> (not >>>>>> anywhere near a direct quote) of he's the master of the chart not the >>>>>> other >>>>>> way round and this will work, trust him. I did, and have never regretted >>>>>> it. >>>>>> >>>>>> With abandon, >>>>>> patrick >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Monday, April 7, 2014 5:44:00 PM UTC-6, George Schick wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Patrick - yeah, I know it. That's why I finished my thread post >>>>>>> with "...it certainly does seem as though not every bike is for every >>>>>>> person…" And along with your list of possible variables there are two >>>>>>> others worth noting: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1) (And this is the one where I get a bit crossways with Grant and >>>>>>> Riv on their frame sizing criteria) Two people of exactly the same >>>>>>> height >>>>>>> and weight can have completely different anatomies and therefore >>>>>>> different >>>>>>> frame size (not to mention stem heights and lengths) requirements. I >>>>>>> can't >>>>>>> remember where I read it now, but a while back someone submitted a post >>>>>>> where he and a co-worker got to talking about frame sizing. Both were >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> same height. One said that he was perfectly comfortable with frame size >>>>>>> "x" and the other said 'no way' and that he required frame size "y". So >>>>>>> they went into the restroom with rulers that they could pull up to their >>>>>>> PBH and looked at themselves in the mirror. Sure enough, one's ruler >>>>>>> was >>>>>>> considerably higher than the other. I'm 5'9", but have short legs for >>>>>>> my >>>>>>> height - in a "normal" anatomy I'd be at least 6' given the length of my >>>>>>> arms and torso - I have shorter legs. So I'm comfy on a 54cm whereas >>>>>>> I've >>>>>>> been told I should be on a 56cm or even a 58cm. Some of my most >>>>>>> miserable >>>>>>> years of cycling back in the early 70's were when I let LBS sales types >>>>>>> talk me into bikes with 23" frames so I could "stretch out", they said. >>>>>>> Not only could I not stand over the bike at a stop without lifting one >>>>>>> leg >>>>>>> off the ground, but I kept having to buy shorter and shorter stems to >>>>>>> accommodate the "large" frame. It was not until the late 70's when I >>>>>>> ordered a frame from Chicago's Turin Bike (never heard what happened to >>>>>>> them or who might've built that frame) until I felt completely >>>>>>> comfortable >>>>>>> on a bike that felt "quick and responsive" and everything else the OP >>>>>>> says >>>>>>> the Ram lacks. Due to financial issues I sold that frame as a complete >>>>>>> bike (equipped entirely with Campy Record components of the time) and >>>>>>> regretted it UNTIL ... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2) …. about a decade ago when I was almost 30 years older and far >>>>>>> less flexible. It seems that AGING has a lot to do with the way a bike >>>>>>> feels and handles and what's comfy and what's not. I don't know how old >>>>>>> the OP is, but maybe he still has enough go-fast in him that the Ram >>>>>>> just >>>>>>> doesn't feel responsive enough. I understand that; I would've felt the >>>>>>> same way 30 years ago. But not now. So much of it is all in the >>>>>>> sizing, >>>>>>> the aging, and the perception. I live next to a city park and I see >>>>>>> people >>>>>>> of all shapes, sizes, ages, and sexes riding their bikes on the park >>>>>>> trail >>>>>>> every day, many of which appear to me to have their saddles too low or >>>>>>> high, wrong size frames, etc. But I'm not about to go out there and >>>>>>> critique them and suggest something different. I've done that before - >>>>>>> many >>>>>>> years ago when a flawed setup seemed obvious to me, only to get >>>>>>> push-back >>>>>>> from the rider that they'd been riding like that for years and were >>>>>>> perfectly comfortable with it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Monday, April 7, 2014 5:54:24 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> George: the OP's -- or OPs' -- negative perception of the Ram is >>>>>>>> entirely a personal matter. (For the record, it is also entirely >>>>>>>> legitimate.) What is in question is very obviously NOT a collection of >>>>>>>> Ram >>>>>>>> qualities alone, but a collection of experiences that certain riders >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> of their Rams. Or perhaps more precisely, we are discussing the >>>>>>>> relationship between certain riders and their Rams. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Tires have been mentioned as one variable. There are probably an >>>>>>>> indefinite number of others, among which is a subset consisting of the >>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>> ways in which a rider's build, pedaling style, gearing choices, >>>>>>>> cockpit and >>>>>>>> saddle setup, and so on, affect the efficiency with which he can >>>>>>>> interact >>>>>>>> with the bike, and, in addition, the way the bike feels when he is >>>>>>>> interacting with it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I' guessing, but I am no merely groping in the dark, since I've at >>>>>>>> least started to see patterns in the relationship between "planing" >>>>>>>> and the >>>>>>>> characteristics of those who experience it. One is pedaling style. >>>>>>>> Someone >>>>>>>> with a mashing pedaling style may well be less prone to benefit from a >>>>>>>> light-tubed frame; he may not be able to experience "planing" and may >>>>>>>> well >>>>>>>> find that a given stout-tubed bike performs very well. Someone who >>>>>>>> pedals >>>>>>>> fast in low gears may well find that same bike dead feeling. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Another possibility: geometry and setup in relation to a rider's >>>>>>>> build and pedaling style. Again, no hard data but enough data to raise >>>>>>>> legitimate "suspicions". >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Me, I find my blue-category Ram perfectly normal. It's not the >>>>>>>> fastest feeling bike I own, but it's not by any means the slowest. My >>>>>>>> erstwhile Sam Hill felt more sluggish even with Jack Brown Greens (and >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> SH's "feeling" was well within normal by my experience and standards -- >>>>>>>> just not what I'd choose as a fast road bike. I sold it for wholly >>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>> reasons, not the lack of spriteliness). Likewise, the Fargo shod with >>>>>>>> 35 mm >>>>>>>> Kojaks felt considerably less spritely than the Ram shod with the very >>>>>>>> same >>>>>>>> pair. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Of which speaking: can anyone tell me the particular specs of the >>>>>>>> tubing for a 1973 Motobecane Grande Record? I know it is light 531, but >>>>>>>> what gauge and butts? I ask because of all the bikes I've owned in the >>>>>>>> last >>>>>>>> 5-6 years, this had the lightest frame of any bike that I've owned >>>>>>>> (frameset considerably lighter by heft, anyway, than either of my 2 >>>>>>>> remaining Riv customs), but I didn't experience any particular feeling >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> speed with it (granted there are all sorts of other factors here), >>>>>>>> while a >>>>>>>> stout tubed and very definitely heavier Herse that others had found >>>>>>>> sluggish (I think I am accurate with that qualifier) felt, to me, >>>>>>>> particularly spritely. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Oh my, all of this hurts my little head. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Patrick Moore, fighting spring headwinds and wishing dead-feeling >>>>>>>> frames were his only obstacle in ABQ, NM. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 3:17 PM, George Schick <bhi...@gmail.com>wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I've been reading through the threads on this post since it was >>>>>>>>> started last Friday and finally decided that I'd better get out my >>>>>>>>> '04 Ram >>>>>>>>> to see if maybe I've been missing something. I haven't been on it all >>>>>>>>> Winter so I figured it would be like a "new" test. So I rode it >>>>>>>>> today and >>>>>>>>> for the life of me I can't see any of the same problems being >>>>>>>>> discussed >>>>>>>>> here (except maybe the pedal strikes which may be lessened by lower >>>>>>>>> profile >>>>>>>>> pedals). Mine is a 54cm shod with 32mm Paselas (standard, not TG's). >>>>>>>>> Maybe the larger 58cm frame makes a difference? Maybe the headset >>>>>>>>> or its >>>>>>>>> adjustment? Dunno. But, yes it certainly does seem as though not >>>>>>>>> every >>>>>>>>> bike is for every person. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, and letters that get interviews. >>>>> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching. >>>>> Other professional writing services. >>>>> http://www.resumespecialties.com/ >>>>> Patrick Moore >>>>> Albuquerque, Nouvelle Mexique, Etats Unis >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, and letters that get interviews. >>> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching. >>> Other professional writing services. >>> http://www.resumespecialties.com/ >>> Patrick Moore >>> Albuquerque, Nouvelle Mexique, Etats Unis >>> >>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "RBW Owners Bunch" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > > > -- > Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, and letters that get interviews. > By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching. > Other professional writing services. > http://www.resumespecialties.com/ > Patrick Moore > Albuquerque, Nouvelle Mexique, Etats Unis > > -- Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, and letters that get interviews. By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching. Other professional writing services. http://www.resumespecialties.com/ Patrick Moore Albuquerque, Nouvelle Mexique, Etats Unis -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
