I don't know whether a 700C bike as such -- *as such* is faster or slower than a 26" wheeled bike. If it is faster, I can't imagine any reason except that bigger wheels somehow roll more easily than smaller ones. (I do think I notice more drag on my 406 mm Kojaks than on my 559 or 622 Kojaks.)
I do know -- you feel it very distinctly riding fixed -- that heavy 700c wheels seem to maintain speed better than light 559 or 571 wheels, given more or less similar tires, but that hasn't made mine any faster for me overall. I've had my road bike setup more or less engraved in stone for the last 20 years, so there is little variable in setup. At any rate, I've ridden many 700C road bikes and 4 very nice 559/571 road bikes, and I've always been fastest on the 26ers, on road. I might well find an Atlantis slower on road, being that it is rather stoutly built compared to a nice, light 700C road frame. OTOH, with Elk Passes on the Atlantis and Pro Race 4s on the gofast -- I dunno! As for coasting downhill: I recall riding with erstwhile Boblist and Rivlist member Gary "9,000 miles; it was a bad year" Blakely up and down Tramway, he on a very nice Trek sport tourer, me on my half stepped '95 custom commuter. He was faster uphill (he waited for me; oh, and I geared waaaay down to 60") but I was faster downhill -- funny, I had to keep braking for politeness sake. Of course, I was about 30 lb heavier than he -- he was small, and probably less than 150, I at about 170; bikes about the same. 32 mm 559 folding, non Tourguard Paselas, so not hugely swift tires. As you say, there are many variables, but from my experience -- which, again, while hardly definitive is considerable, I would very emphatically say that I have no evidence at all after decades of riding that 700c is inherently faster than smaller wheels because of momentum, tire drag, spoke churn, frontal aerodynamics, weight, or any other reason. I do ride my Elk Pass-shod tires with said wheels on light dirt and gravel; fun! Even the gofast works, now that I swapped the Keos for even lighter SPD clones. (Tho' I am hoarding my old Dura Ace SPD road pedals, because they will probably go on to the gofast simply because they are *nice*). Note that the Sun M14A was designed as a mountain bike tire back in the early '90s, and I used them for years off road with Farmer Johns and such. I also commuted across town on them, on some rough pavement, sometime with heavy rear loads, while shod with 200 gram 559 22 mm Specialized Turbos. The rims are bombproof. I did break a couple of rear nipples under rear loads of 30 lb or more while using the Turbos, but that was because the wheels were built with Revolution spokes and aluminum nipples. I switched to 14-15 and brass and no more problems. But then I found the Kojak and after that the Elk Pass. And I would very definitely use 26" for dirt and touring; I use it on dirt (Race Lite) tho' I've not done any touring. I think -- no touring experience, but extrapolating from such load handling experience as I have with them -- that 26" would be a better size for touring, especially with a tire like the Rat Trap Pass. In fact, had I not invested in a Matthews replacement of the Fargo, with the custom wheels and parts, I'd probably be buying a Raven or something roady to accept a Rat Trap Pass tire, or perhaps a 559X2.5" Furious Fred. On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 9:10 PM, Hugh Smitham <hughsmit...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 7:22 PM, Patrick Moore <bertin...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> It's the same bike, a 1999 Rivendell road custom, formerly with 650C >> wheels and Pro 4s, now with 559 wheels and Elk Passes. The gear is now a >> tiny bit higher (76" versus 75", since the wheel is 1/4" bigger with the >> Elk Passes) but I seem to be able to push it more easily -- cadence versus >> effort versus conditions. The Elk Passes I've owned weigh between 172 and >> 178 grams; the Pro Race 4 was about 200 grams. >> >> That said: why would a 700C bike fitted with 700C Pro Race 4s be faster >> or lighter than a bike built for 26" wheels? >> > > Lots of variables here, rider conditioning, course conditions and bike > build characteristics. Did you measure your yourself on the same segment > with the exact same conditions to arrive at your conclusion? I recently > rode my Trek 660 with someone riding my Atlantis and though that person is > in decent shape I can assure you the Trek 660 shod with Conti Grand Prix > 700x28mm was faster. This wasn't a controlled experiment so pretty > meaningless. > > Note that a faster bike may or may not be lighter than a slower bike. >> > > Right, sure the engine may be finely tuned. > >> >> Do you mean that smaller wheels have pari passu greater rolling >> resistance? >> > > Nope that's not what I'm saying and I have no data to confirm deny that. > > >> That may be so, but the difference IME (which is considerable) is hard to >> feel, and I certainly feel that the 26" Elk Pass tires roll better than any >> 700C tire I've used (well, the 50 mm Furious Fred certainly rolls well, but >> it has knoblets to slow it down on pavement). >> > > I've found when riding alongside folks with relatively similar > conditioning on 700c bikes and me on my 26er I have the advantage on climbs > and am at a disadvantage on descents. The 700's can keep the momentum up. > Again maybe if I had the wheels and tires you're rolling those > disadvantages would disappear? > > >> As for weight, ceteris paribus, a smaller wheel will have lighter rims, >> tires, and tubes -- this by mere fact of size; but the change brought >> further weight reduction, in that the 650C ME14As weighed ~430 grams while >> the 559 M14As (no eyelets) weight 370 grams. And as before, the EPs are >> lighter than the PR4s. (The gofast weighs ~17.5 lb with cage and pedals but >> no seat bag.) >> > > Those are light wheels and tires. And you've made a great point for > 26ers. Would you use them for mixed terrain and loaded touring? > > Finally, I don't recall, despite subscribing to BQ for the last 10 years, >> that Jan tested the relative speeds of wheels of different diameters. He >> made judgements about handling and wheel diameter and tire width. Did I >> miss something? >> >> However, assuming the bike shod with Michelin Pro Race 4 @ 22mm are shod >>>> on a 700c bike versus a bike with the Compass ELk 26x1.25 I'll remain a >>>> skeptic that the 26er will be faster. A bike designed with that tire in >>>> mind >>>> >>> > Less of a skeptic. > >> (Michelin Pro Race 4) is lighter and consequently faster. As Doug >>>> mentioned, *perhaps* Jan did a test on this very thing, if so I'd be >>>> curious to read it. >>>> >>> >>>> > ~Hugh > > “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep > moving.” ― Albert Einstein > > http://velocipeedemusings.com/ > > >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the >> Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. >> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/cerNIKH36P0/unsubscribe >> . >> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to >> rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "RBW Owners Bunch" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews. By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching. Other professional writing services. http://www.resumespecialties.com/ www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/ Patrick Moore Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique, Vereinigte Staaten ************************************************************************** ************** *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a circumference on which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the world revolves.) *Carthusian motto *It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart *Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
