A few things about drop bars on Riv's, shortening reach to bars, and short
stems.
1. Putting a zero offset post on your bike is not a valid way to shorten
reach. It's like cutting the toe box out of your shoes because they're too
short. The answer isn't shoe destruction, it's to get shoes that fit.
Zero offset posts make zero sense unless your bike has a really slack seat
angle to begin with. The following is from a forthcoming article on
Tanglefoot Cycles' website, which I wrote. "
In the years between 1890 and 1905, bike geometry made a shift. Bikes
in the early 1890’s had really steep seat angles and really short
chainstays, geometry not far from today’s ‘trail bikes’. In the years that
followed, bike geometry grew up. It settled on angles that reflected the
use of the bike for longer and rougher trips. Bike makers needed to modify
angles until folks could ride long, hard rides, over really bad terrain.
Slowly, then allofasudden, angles looked normal. The Wright Brothers Van
Cleve, a really nice looking all arounder, has a seat angle that we’d
recognize today as a normal, riding position. Tanglefoot recognizes the
importance of this riding position. People have not physically changed
much in 100 years. The riding position that worked for long, hard rides is
still the riding position we need today. Steep seat angles were discarded
through 20 years of experimentation a long time ago. We don’t need to
relearn the lesson. It’s already been learned.
By 1900, cycling had transitioned from a rich person’s hobby to a
serious means of transportation. The first roads in the US to be paved
were not paved because of cars, but because cyclists demanded better
surfaces to ride on. Bike racing became incredibly popular, including long
endurance track races and long distance road races. Bike riding clubs
started up all over the country. Riders routinely rode long distances in
these club rides, riding from town to town, city to city. Bike touring
became an affordable way to see the country. All of these factors meant
people were spending more time on their bikes. They needed a riding
position that allowed them to travel these increased distances comfortably.
Seat angles became slacker and chainstays grew longer because of this. By
1910 or so, seat angles had more or less settled on the standard that was
used as the paradigm for the next 120 years.
It’s important to note a few things about this seat tube angle.
For starters, the effective angle between the center of the usable
portion of the saddle rails and the center of the bottom bracket is not the
seat tube angle. Let’s call that angle the effective saddle fore and aft
position angle, or just saddle angle for short. The saddle angle is slacker
than the seat tube angle and that’s important. It’s roughly 1.5 degrees
slacker on most bikes. The human body hasn't changed in all these
years.. and the sound fit principals that found this happy medium have not
changed either. The relationship of the hip/knee/pedal happens to grow as
needed by a taller rider’s femur as the saddle goes up and back on this
angled axis, the Mezzo Forte Axis. The Mezzo Forte Axis is the
moderate, but powerful riding position that has proven itself over the
course of history.
The fastest riders on the planet, the riders who race the Tour and the
Giro and the Vuelta ride this saddle angle. If there was a faster angle to
ride hard then get up the next day and do it again, they’d use it. Look at
the pro’s road race bikes. The steeper the seat angle, the more saddle
set back there is. This is the reason, very very few pros ride 0mm
setback posts, and only a tiny handful ride posts with negative setback,
ie posts that put your saddle clamp in front of the seatpost.
We have high-tech technology to see what the best position is on a bike
for long distance riding. Before we had the technology, we had stopwatches
and race results. I’ve heard arguments that a more forward riding position
is more powerful for short bursts. That’s true, but it’s not
sustainable power. If it was, road racers would use it all the time.
The muscles engaged with a more forward position do not have the ability to
grind in a forward position for hours. You use big endurance muscles
when your saddle is further back. They’re not as punchy, but they’re
effective for the long haul. Wanna use those power muscles? Slide forward
on your saddle. Then... This from a different section: You also never
want to admit that by shortening chainstays and steepening seat angles, you
are putting the riders’ weight further forward, which decreases traction on
the rear wheel and puts more weight on your hands. The forward weight
shift also increases the likelihood of an endo (flying over your handlebars
when the going gets steep or sketchy). This position disregards years of
proven results for the purpose of fat tire / short stay marketing piffle
and misinformed claims of increased power with no regard for reduced
mechanical advantage. Steep seat angles work fine on Time Trial/Tri bikes,
because the bars are incredibly low. This combo, low bars, steep seat
angle, allows you to maintain the relationship between your torso and legs
that makes a normal seat angle work so well. If you only change one of
these things, IE the seat angle, and not the other, the system falls out of
wack. No advertising or catalog is gunna point these negative issues
out. They are not selling features. Nor is the knee damage riders will
suffer from an increasingly aggressive pedaling position, or the higher
center of gravity resulting from moving forward and up. As the saddle
moves forward, it must also be raised to maintain consistent leg length.
2.
Your saddle needs to be at the right height and set back for long term
comfortable riding. You adjust reach with a stem, as that does not
negatively impact your best saddle position.
3.
Never move a saddle toward it's extremes on the rails. I've seen far too
many rails break from this. Saddles, esp Brooks, need to be centered within
a few mm on the seatpost clamp.
4.
All of this is why we reinvented (from the early 1900's) the super short
(w)Right stem, which finally will be available again in about 2-3 weeks.
They are at the cerakoter now. 225mm quill length, the same as a Technomic
Tallux, because it uses a Technomic bolt and wedge. We'll have 30mm and 0mm
extensions, in clear gloss cerakote or gloss black cerakote, which is
harder and thinner and longer lasting than a powder coat. In a month, we'll
have these in 50 and 70mm as well. Analog and The Psychic Derailleur will
stock them. 31.8mm clamp only for now, but that's not a bad thing, as most
good bars these days only come in 31.8. For whatever it's worth, the stem
is entirely US sourced, from the materials to the guy brazing them (Alex
Meade) to the coating. 4 bolt faceplate.
5.
Combining a short reach stem and shorter reach bars is a valid fit fix,
and, when you are using a steel stem with 31.8 clamp, you are also
stiffening up bar area, which means better tracking, especially on rough
terrain.
6.
Every Riv model can be converted to a comfortable drop bar set up
without a 0mm seatpost. You just need the right bars and stem. I've done it
to Clems, Joe's, lots of Atlantises. Works great, with the right tools.
-james / Analog Cycles / Tanglefoot Cycles / Discord Components / Fifth
Season Canvas
On Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 7:00:13 AM UTC-5, John G. wrote:
>
> I have a bunch of parts in need of a 700c frame, so I’ve been pondering my
> next build. I miss my old Atlantis, though I traded it for my Roadeo, which
> I love. I’m thinking about getting a MIT Atlantis, but the reach on the MIT
> model seems longer than the older iterations. Albatrosses aren’t for me—I
> get wrist pain on longer rides. Has anyone set up their MIT Atlantis with
> drops or Albastaches? Are they really more intended for bars like the
> Albastache?
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