It's not the lugs. I've had lugged bikes that felt sluggish and tigg'd or fillet brazed bikes that felt lively.
As to thicker-walled and over-sized tubing: that 2003 Riv Road custom you've all enjoyed hearing so much about never felt as lively as the 1999 RRc. I don't know what the difference in tubing was between the 2, but the 2 frames were for practical purposes geometrical clones, and they were built up almost identically.* I had a standard gauge 531 fillet brazed frame with -- well, is it thin wall? .8 .4 .8 tubes, don't know if all or just some -- built in an almost exact geometrical copy of the 2003. Immediately it felt livelier and "easier to maintain a given cadence in a given gear in given conditions," much like the 1999 in fact I wholly agree lugs have nothing to do with it. On Thu, Aug 5, 2021 at 11:12 AM Brian Campbell <bdcampbel...@gmail.com> wrote: > I own two "old style" Rivendells: > > 2011 A. Homer Hilsen > 2019 Legolas > > I recently picked up a used, fillet brazed L' avecaise (Jeff Lyon) built > frame with a light wieght top tube, down tube and its bit lighter overall > than the similarly sized Legolas. The ride is great and it feels easier to > pedal and climbs easier than either of the lugged Rivendells. I have a 46 > mile loop that I do regulalry and measure my rides on Rides with GPS. The > L'avecaise speed was 1.6 mph faster than either of the Rivendells. I > believe its the tubes and not the lugs. > > On Thursday, August 5, 2021 at 12:25:16 PM UTC-4 Fullylugged wrote: > >> Doing some interwebs reading over a lunchtime sandwich, it seems most >> people side with Bill. Lugs are apparently stronger, and possibly prettier, >> and they are easier to do a tube replacement with, but tube size, frame >> geometry, wall thickness and tube alloy are more where the stiffness enters >> in. YMMV >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On Aug 5, 2021, at 9:12 AM, Bill Lindsay <tape...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Fullylugged said about lugs: " It's not the look, it's the livelier >> action you get in a lugged frame, I think" >> >> >> That's a pretty hot take. I wonder how many others feel the same way? >> The vast majority of folks attribute "liveliness" and "deadness" to tubing >> specs: tubing that flexes more is more lively. Tubing that is stiffer is >> more dead. The prevailing theory lumps thick walled OS diameter tubing >> bikes into the 'dead' camp, and thinwall, standard diameter tubing into the >> 'lively' camp. Personally, I have a bunch of bikes with standard diameter >> thin wall tubing and a bunch of bikes with OS tubing, and I don't think of >> any of them as being more dead than the others. >> >> Yours is the first take I've seen attributing 'liveliness' to the lugs, >> or that tig-welds will make an otherwise lively frame become dead. >> >> Bill Lindsay >> El Cerrito, CA >> >> On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 4:29:12 PM UTC-7 Fullylugged wrote: >> >>> >>> Bill wrote, " It does not have the lugged look if you need that look". >>> The Salsa and the Crust are welded frames. It's not the look, it's the >>> livelier action you get in a lugged frame, I think. A Rawland Norvindian >>> felt dead underneath me, and so did a LHT. My fullylugged Ram and Road >>> OTOH are lively (as are my other 2 fully lugged steel bikes. An old Nashbar >>> by Maruishi and a Waterford). I'd take a Toyo Atlantis in a heartbeat if >>> one came along in my size. or an AR for that matter. >>> No disrespect to the original color, but that new mermaid color is the >>> bomb and I'd gladly use it for my next paint job. >>> On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 2:31:39 PM UTC-5 Edwin W wrote: >>> >>>> The first Riv I ever saw was an Atlantis on the BART when I was living >>>> in Berkeley in the late 2000s. Didn't know what it was at the time, but I >>>> thought, that looks cool! Had a Sam, now a Joe, but I always loved that >>>> original Atlantis. Not the current one with the bow-flex second tube in my >>>> size. >>>> I think Rivendell should do a run of the original(ish) Atlantis, with >>>> some of these aspects from those first runs: >>>> >>>> 1. The color (of course) >>>> 2. Single top tube (doubles aren't for everyone) >>>> 3. 26' wheels in small sizes, 700c in the bigger ones (I'd be cool >>>> with 26' in all sizes) >>>> 4. 45mm chainstays (maybe a hair smaller in the smaller sizes, a >>>> hair bigger in the large sizes) >>>> 5. Clearance for 2in tires with fenders >>>> >>>> Who else would sign up for one? >>>> What other aspects would you like? >>>> >>>> Hankering for an Atlantis (61 or 64cm if you have one) in Nashville, >>>> >>>> Edwin >>>> >>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the >> Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. >> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/Wukcf2moDpc/unsubscribe >> . >> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to >> rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/d175fac4-d98a-4144-8208-aafd6d5bcdaen%40googlegroups.com >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/d175fac4-d98a-4144-8208-aafd6d5bcdaen%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "RBW Owners Bunch" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/2dfe075d-05c0-498d-a75b-1fff51500fe1n%40googlegroups.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/2dfe075d-05c0-498d-a75b-1fff51500fe1n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Patrick Moore Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. 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