*Today: Progress! * Thanks again for your replies. Today Wesley and Stephen's replies suggesting that it might *not *be the hanger had me scratching my head in new and exciting ways. Thank you for your suggestions that I keep searching.
I remembered that back when all this began my friend Tess at A1A bike shop in St. Augustine asked if there was play in the freehub body or the cassette. I checked both and noticed a very small amount of wiggle in the cassette. It seemed acceptable. She recommended that I try a different wheel and cassette. I hadn't done this yet and decided today that I'd try a wheel swap before purchasing the Park DAG. I'll probably still get one ;) This afternoon I removed the wheel, removed the S-Ride 7-speed cassette and installed an 8-speed cassette from my parts bin with the same cog configuration (11-32). Snugged it up, re-installed the wheel. It was raining out and I rode around the neighborhood in my jeans and wool Birkenstocks until my pants and shirt were soaked. No skips from the chain! Until today all of my dozens of test rides resulted in the chain jumping after the first few strokes. I would ride the bike out of my shop and start saying, out loud, "Clunk clunk clunk." Then the chain would clunk and I'd say a string of words that would get me forever banned from this forum. This time it didn't happen once. I rode for about two miles around the neighborhood in my smallest three cogs, pedaled hard, climbed a hill, pedaled out of the saddle. Chain felt and operated like normal. I'll have to take it on a longer ride tomorrow to be sure. *I believe the cassette lock ring was loose, *introducing movement in the cassette. When I say the chain was "jumping" I mean that when I pedaled under load the chain would physically slip, clunk loudly and interrupt my stroke. I think the chain would slip off of one of the cassette teeth, slide for a second, then engage with another tooth. It makes a sharp, loud noise that sounds unpleasant and feels wrong under your feet. The lock ring must have come loose during the fall and subsequent mangling of the derailer and hanger. I wish I'd listened to Tess right out of the gate, I would have been much further along if I had. It would seem my hand and eye derailer alignment skills are passable. I currently have a Deore XT derailer installed. I much prefer the classical looks of the Suntour Cyclone but I'm going to leave the XT installed for the shakeout period. Thanks again to everyone for the help, encouragement, kind words and collective brainpower! On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 8:52:56 PM UTC-4 Eric Marth wrote: > George: Thanks for reading along! Yes, the Helicoil seems like a more > robust solution, I agree. > > Jason: Noted! If only Riv would bring back those beefy headset presses > they got a super limited run of a few years ago. Never need one but... they > seemed awesome. > > On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 8:21:45 PM UTC-4 Jason Fuller wrote: > >> Eric, you've *got* to get a DAG alignment tool! The heavy steel one, >> avoid the new lighter one. It's a must have for the home mechanic of fine >> steel frames that do not have replaceable hangers. I use it every time the >> derailleur is pulled off for any reason, or if I'm having any stubborn >> shifting issue - it's amazing how often it's just because the alignment was >> out slightly. >> >> On Thursday, 3 August 2023 at 12:17:13 UTC-7 George Schick wrote: >> >>> This is one of the more interesting posts/threads having to do with bike >>> repairs that has come along in awhile (with no intention to downplay the >>> unfortunate accident!). I like the final post about a Helicoil or dropout >>> saver recommendation. My own preference would likely be the Helicoil >>> because you have to tap in new larger diameter threads in order to install >>> the coil, which seems like it would stabilize the damaged hanger better. >>> Having view the dropout saver at the Wheels Mfg. website, I'm not sure how >>> well that would work in this case. >>> >>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 1:21:37 PM UTC-5 eric...@gmail.com wrote: >>> >>>> Further ideas: Antonio at Riv suggested getting a Helicoil tool in the >>>> M10x1.0 size to repair the bolt hole. Brian Chapman recommended installing >>>> a Wheels Mfg. dropout saver. Either would attempt to repair the bolt hole. >>>> >>>> I'm open to trying either of those fixes as well. >>>> >>>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 2:17:55 PM UTC-4 Eric Marth wrote: >>>> >>>>> Thanks for the replies, everyone. >>>>> >>>>> A few asked about the chain jumping/skipping/slipping. When the chain >>>>> is under load it slips or clunks repeatedly. It's kind of like when >>>>> you're >>>>> in the wrong gear and you need to trim the gear to get it right. But no >>>>> amount of trimming is fixing the issue. >>>>> >>>>> I've tried three different derailers, same problem. The cassette was >>>>> new in summer of 2022 and I haven't ridden in the three big gears enough >>>>> to >>>>> wear out the teeth of the cogs. It's an S-Ride 7s from Rivendell, it's an >>>>> 11-32. The crank is the same age, installed last summer. SunXCD crank >>>>> with >>>>> TA Specialites rings, 42/26. I don't see any issues with the wheel (it's >>>>> running true) or with worn cassette or chainring teeth. Also no play in >>>>> the >>>>> freehub body. >>>>> >>>>> The elongated hole: It could be the derailer is flexing in the hole, >>>>> hard to determine this off the bike. Derailer seems seated when I try to >>>>> move it around in my hand, doesn't wobble. >>>>> >>>>> I have *not yet* tried installing a different wheel and cassette. >>>>> That will be next. Should have tried that *much* earlier in the >>>>> process. >>>>> >>>>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 11:57:01 AM UTC-4 Jim Whorton wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Oops, I just noticed Stephen had already made the point about the >>>>>> derailleur possibly wiggling in the hole. Yes— what Stephen said. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jim >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 11:52:54 AM UTC-4 Jim Whorton wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Even though it’s threading in smoothly, I wonder if that elongated >>>>>>> hole is the problem. Wonder if that bolt is moving under tension. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I’m not a bike mechanic by any means but I did spring for the Park >>>>>>> Derailleur Hanger Alignment Gauge awhile back and I’m glad. I have >>>>>>> used it >>>>>>> on old frames and on a new Riv frame I built up recently. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On YouTube, RJ the Bike Guy has a good video on building a homemade >>>>>>> dropout alignment gauge, also useful: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PsU8IkkFaok >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jim in Rochester, NY >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 11:08:28 AM UTC-4 Stephen wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://www.jensonusa.com/Wolf-Tooth-Hanger-Alignment-Tool >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 10:41:54 AM UTC-4 Stephen wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hey Eric, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Been loosely following along. Glad you were ok in the accident but >>>>>>>>> sheesh, what a bummer it did so much damage. Id vote along with >>>>>>>>> others for >>>>>>>>> getting a hanger alignment tool, or figuring out how to make one for >>>>>>>>> yourself. i bought a wolf tooth variety ( i prefer the way it >>>>>>>>> references to >>>>>>>>> the hub vs rim) not too long ago and dont regret the investment. I >>>>>>>>> bought >>>>>>>>> after knocking my appaloosa over on the drive side. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I will say i am curious too whether there might be something else >>>>>>>>> going on to cause the skipping.. when my hanger was bent it was only >>>>>>>>> noticeable that when in my biggest cassette ring the derailer would >>>>>>>>> go into >>>>>>>>> the wheel. may depend on what way its bended. I’m curious if the >>>>>>>>> derailer >>>>>>>>> may have any wiggle in the elongated hole. have you tried subbing in >>>>>>>>> another derailer or chain to test the system? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I encourage you to keep trying to solve on your own before >>>>>>>>> reaching the final solution of frame repair or sending cross country, >>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>> would be time consuming and expensive. I can’t imagine what antonio >>>>>>>>> or mark >>>>>>>>> would do that you or someone more experienced on the east coast >>>>>>>>> couldnt >>>>>>>>> achieve. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -stephen >>>>>>>>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 9:33:06 AM UTC-4 CJ wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Can you elaborate on "the chain skips"? A misaligned derailleur >>>>>>>>>> hanger will cause shifting to be sub-optimal, but unless the hanger >>>>>>>>>> is so >>>>>>>>>> bent that the derailleur is way, way out of whack, it can't make the >>>>>>>>>> chain >>>>>>>>>> skip. Skipping chains are caused by worn or damaged chains and/or >>>>>>>>>> cogs. >>>>>>>>>> Have you checked your cassette cogs for damage? Try a new chain and >>>>>>>>>> cassette? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Another thing to check, are your dropouts aligned? Is the wheel >>>>>>>>>> still sitting straight in the frame? Dropout alignment tools are >>>>>>>>>> nice to >>>>>>>>>> have, but pricey and you shouldn't need them often. You can >>>>>>>>>> improvise with >>>>>>>>>> threaded rod and a handful of hardware. Google is your friend. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> If you own multiple bikes, you should own a derailleur hanger >>>>>>>>>> alignment tool. I have an inexpensive "Cyclospirit" one, and it's >>>>>>>>>> paid for >>>>>>>>>> itself many times over. It's maybe a little more fiddly to use than >>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>> expensive, name-brand tool, but it works. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> CJ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, August 2, 2023 at 11:20:22 PM UTC-4 >>>>>>>>>> eric...@gmail.com wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Okay, some mild updates. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I've bent and tweaked the hanger with crescent wrenches at least >>>>>>>>>> two dozen times now. Worked on it during the miserable heat wave >>>>>>>>>> here and >>>>>>>>>> during nicer weather yesterday. During the process I remove the >>>>>>>>>> chain and >>>>>>>>>> the derailer, tweak the hanger, re-install the chain and derailer, >>>>>>>>>> test >>>>>>>>>> ride. Repeat. Over and over! Every time I ride the bike the chain >>>>>>>>>> skips. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I've tried aligning by hand and eye. I've used a series of >>>>>>>>>> straight edges, trying to reference off the cassette to the face of >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> derailer hanger where the derailer sits. I can get the straight >>>>>>>>>> edges into >>>>>>>>>> plane with one another but evidently that's not enough because the >>>>>>>>>> chain >>>>>>>>>> still jumps. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I feel like I can finesse this thing back into working order but >>>>>>>>>> I have so far been unsuccessful. The hanger is relatively flat >>>>>>>>>> considering >>>>>>>>>> how mangled it got. It's considerably better than it was. The bolt >>>>>>>>>> hole is >>>>>>>>>> elongated but fortunately derailer bolts screw in nicely and the >>>>>>>>>> threads >>>>>>>>>> feel good. Through all my uninstalling/reinstalling the bolts thread >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> nicely each time. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> One problem is that the guys at the LBS have put their dropout >>>>>>>>>> and hanger alignment tools on the bike and they say the tools show >>>>>>>>>> things >>>>>>>>>> are aligned. *But* they are also audibly and visibly weary of >>>>>>>>>> putting too much torque on the hanger and seem to think it's going >>>>>>>>>> to shear >>>>>>>>>> off the frame if they look at it funny. I don't think that's going >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> happen. I talked to Grant about this twice now and he doesn't think >>>>>>>>>> that's >>>>>>>>>> going to happen, either. He shared an acedote wherein he bent a >>>>>>>>>> derailer >>>>>>>>>> hanger through 180º of motion several times before the hanger >>>>>>>>>> sheared off. >>>>>>>>>> I'm not moving mine nearly as much, just a bit at a time. And today >>>>>>>>>> I heard >>>>>>>>>> Grant Petersen say "Steel is magical." So I'm adding that to my >>>>>>>>>> lifetime >>>>>>>>>> book of memorable quotes by notable people. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> There's another shop in town but I get bad vibes every time I go >>>>>>>>>> in there so I'm going to spare myself and stay away. I know if I go >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> there it'll end up being a bad scene and I'll regret it. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm open to having a builder try to align the hanger, heat it up >>>>>>>>>> and shape it or braze a new dropout onto the frame. But the builder >>>>>>>>>> I know >>>>>>>>>> and have worked with before on three other bikes (this Hillborne >>>>>>>>>> included) >>>>>>>>>> has sold his tools and retired. Two other nearby builders haven't >>>>>>>>>> returned >>>>>>>>>> my messages. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Now I'm thinking the best next step is to drop > $100 on a >>>>>>>>>> derailer hanger alignment tool and try it myself in the home shop. >>>>>>>>>> Looking >>>>>>>>>> at the Park Tool DAG 2.2. This eliminates the hesitancy of other >>>>>>>>>> mechanics >>>>>>>>>> (I'm not afraid to wreck the bike) and gives me a useful tool to >>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>> forever. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Full options going forward (as I see them, open to suggestions as >>>>>>>>>> always): >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> - Buy a gauge and adjust it myself until I'm satisfied or I >>>>>>>>>> give up and advance to next option >>>>>>>>>> - Take it to a shop >>>>>>>>>> - Go-to shop seems afraid to break my hanger, I don't >>>>>>>>>> think that's going to happen but they are audibly and visibly >>>>>>>>>> weary. >>>>>>>>>> - Other shop in town I avoid at all costs and don't want >>>>>>>>>> to take my bikes to them >>>>>>>>>> - Get a new dropout welded onto the bike >>>>>>>>>> - I wouldn't mind doing this but I can't find a builder in >>>>>>>>>> my area >>>>>>>>>> - Contacted three people. One retired, the other two >>>>>>>>>> haven't responded. >>>>>>>>>> - Send it to Rivendell >>>>>>>>>> - Grant thinks Mark or Antonio can fix the hanger. Cool! >>>>>>>>>> - Grant said to send the bike stripped down, no fork. How >>>>>>>>>> are they going to align and test it to see if the chain jumps? >>>>>>>>>> - I don't reaaaally want to freight the bike >>>>>>>>>> coast-to-coast twice. Not a dealbreaker, tho. >>>>>>>>>> - Grant said if Mark or Antonio can't get it he knows a >>>>>>>>>> builder who can do the repair but it could be three months >>>>>>>>>> before I get the >>>>>>>>>> bike back. >>>>>>>>>> - This leads me back to... >>>>>>>>>> - Buy a gauge and adjust it myself >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> If you've made it this far, wow, you are invested in this repair! >>>>>>>>>> Thanks for checking in. I'll post more updates as they develop. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, August 2, 2023 at 11:03:10 PM UTC-4 Eric Marth >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks, Ryan. Yes, I think the cost for the repair would be >>>>>>>>>> reasonable. I worry the cost to freight the frame would be a little >>>>>>>>>> painful >>>>>>>>>> and the time without the bike could be considerable depending on how >>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>> shakes out. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The poster is the MTB countryside illustration, same illustrator >>>>>>>>>> who did yours. "Get away fast on a Bridgestone" or something like >>>>>>>>>> that. >>>>>>>>>> Hills, dirt road, country church. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 7:36:10 AM UTC-4 Ryan wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Yikes! That is too bad but I'm glad you weren't hurt. I know you >>>>>>>>>> are very ingenious, but maybe the frame needs to be sent to Riv for >>>>>>>>>> repair? >>>>>>>>>> Who will no doubt do the repair at a reasonable cost >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Which poster? I have the "saddle up on a bridgestone"...my >>>>>>>>>> favorite of the Grant-inspired ones...the one with the rider on a >>>>>>>>>> roadbike >>>>>>>>>> alongside a galloping horse. Can't remember if I bought it from >>>>>>>>>> Rivendell >>>>>>>>>> or from a friend of mine who built many of my wheels and at one time >>>>>>>>>> was a >>>>>>>>>> bridgestone dealer and sold me my 1993 X0-1 that I still have >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 4:55:39 AM UTC-5 R. Alexis wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> That does not look good. Maybe once you get it into a stand and >>>>>>>>>> carefully remove the derailleur and gently realign the hanger you >>>>>>>>>> will be >>>>>>>>>> fine. The rear der pully cage can probably be bent back into shape. >>>>>>>>>> Issue >>>>>>>>>> is probably trusting it. Hope things work out. Glad you were not >>>>>>>>>> hurt. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Reginald Alexis >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, July 23, 2023 at 2:13:02 PM UTC-5 eric...@gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hey gang — I was out for a Sunday ride and stopped to take a >>>>>>>>>> picture. I rolled to the side of the road and did not see the >>>>>>>>>> culvert, >>>>>>>>>> hidden with fresh grass clippings. I tumbled over at low speed. I'm >>>>>>>>>> fine! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> When I stood up I noticed my drive-side bar end shifter had >>>>>>>>>> rotated 90º. And my derailer hanger and the derailer were bent. I >>>>>>>>>> spun the >>>>>>>>>> crank while off the bike and it seemed to move okay so I thought I'd >>>>>>>>>> give >>>>>>>>>> it a go as a single speed. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I pedaled for a few strokes, then nudged the shifter. It was at >>>>>>>>>> that time the derailer turned upside down and inside out, bending >>>>>>>>>> into the >>>>>>>>>> spokes and throwing the chain. It was really fun! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> [image: Screenshot 2023-07-23 at 3.05.28 PM.png] >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> This is my Hillborne, my most-ridden bike. I'll see if the hanger >>>>>>>>>> can be bent but I have a feeling it will require some work from a >>>>>>>>>> frame >>>>>>>>>> builder. That's a Suntour Cyclone. Fortunately I have five of them >>>>>>>>>> (including this one). You might recall the cage tension spring in my >>>>>>>>>> previous Cyclone recently failed. This is one of the replacements I >>>>>>>>>> picked >>>>>>>>>> up. It was in excellent shape but now it's going to the salvage bin. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> While I was waiting for a ride four people stopped to ask if they >>>>>>>>>> could help me. One was a cyclist who said "You need anything?" I >>>>>>>>>> replied "I >>>>>>>>>> need derailer hanger, a rear mech and a welding torch!" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hope your weekend rides weren't so mechanically eventful. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Eric >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/37f17f75-e0ff-4e1c-9e96-7e820f4bd892n%40googlegroups.com.
