Great comparison! For what it’s worth I think you have there a pre-2024 Appaloosa with its 72-degree head tube angle. The difference in front wheel offset to the Charlie (with its slacker head tube angle) is noticeable.
And yes, with its 50mm tyre clearance I can’t help but feel that the Hillborne is now similar on paper to the earlier Atlanti and hence worth looking at for people pining over those frames! On Tuesday, 4 November 2025 at 12:36:52 UTC+10:30 Mike in BK wrote: > Very helpful, Al. Thanks! If you look on Bike Insights and compare the > 2017 (May) geometry of the first Atlantis MIT frames it's amazing how the > 61cm Atlantis is so close to the current 57cm Hillborne geometry, just with > more slope to the top tube for the Hillborne. The Hillborne definitely is > an all-rounder and the Atlantis and Appaloosa moved toward heavy hauling or > fat tire trail bike. The Appaloosa has lingered in my mind for so long > because I was intrigued when Grant made the Charlie Gallop. On paper that > looks like an Atlantis or Appaloosa, including a 70 degree head tube and > extremely long chainstays, yet it's a lighter weight, lighter duty, road > bike. It's so damn funky I can't imagine shelling out $1750 without having > ridden one, and it isn't for trails. I just figured that this must be a > geometry Grant thinks is the path forward for us who have decided to commit > to sweptback bars. Check this Charlie - Joe composite below (sorry, I meant > to line up the bottom brackets, but you see the similarities). > [image: bikes-mm.jpg] > > On Monday, November 3, 2025 at 4:34:00 PM UTC-5 Al wrote: > >> Hi Mike, >> >> I've owned both. I currently own an Appaloosa (2023 production run), I >> sold my Hillborne (2017) to make the switch. There is more of a >> Cadillac-esque ride to the Appaloosa. The first time I rode it my >> brother-in-law and I took it out and kept commenting on how we'd never >> ridden a bike that felt so smooth and stable. The longer chain stays and >> geometry do give it that unique riding experience that so many people talk >> about. >> >> I made the switch for a variety of reasons (fit bigger tires, longer >> wheelbase ride, be able to carry more weight comfortably). All that being >> said, there are things I miss about the Sam and I think it might make more >> sense for the riding you're describing. The Sam is lighter and accelerates >> faster, it's also more responsive and 'springy'. For context, I used the >> Sam as a daily commuter in Seattle, grocery hauler, light trail shredder, >> and loaded multi-day tourer/bikecamper. It held up to all of those uses >> very well. The Sam is a very fun bike and I think it's as close to an all >> around bike as Rivendell makes. >> >> Hopefully I didn't make you more confused. Like others have said they are >> both great bikes. >> >> Al >> Grand Rapids >> >> On Monday, November 3, 2025 at 3:44:33 PM UTC-5 Mike in BK wrote: >> >>> Thanks all. Just the kind of insight I needed. Not having the >>> opportunity to test either out makes it tough to decide. >>> >>> On Saturday, November 1, 2025 at 6:19:46 PM UTC-4 [email protected] >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Mike, >>>> >>>> I had the same thoughts as you on the Appaloosa. I started with a Sam >>>> before they were cantilever braked. At the time, I was able to test ride >>>> both the Sam and the Joe since I'm local to East Bay. They were similar, >>>> but the Sam definitely felt more road like and more responsive in that >>>> way. >>>> Being more of a road rider then, I decided to get the Sam. It was a >>>> great >>>> bike but then my riding changed and I wanted something that could handle >>>> more rough trails and heavier touring but still feel good on the road. So >>>> I went back to the Joe and I couldn't be happier. I'm doing equal parts >>>> road, dirt, and touring and it's the perfect bike for all that. I do >>>> think >>>> it's the closest to the bike for everything if you're willing to >>>> compromise >>>> some on the outside edges of the spectrum. For example, Joe feels great >>>> on the road if I use drop bars and stay on flat or light hills and >>>> descending. It's not a great climbing bike though. On the other end, >>>> it's >>>> good on most trails except for super technical, downhill type stuff which >>>> is fine for me because I have no business on those trails. And touring >>>> it >>>> is a dream, no complaints. >>>> >>>> So I'd suggest you just really look carefully at the type of riding >>>> you'll do and then make the decision based on that. They are both great >>>> bikes. >>>> >>>> Ryan, super happy Appaloosa rider >>>> >>>> On Saturday, November 1, 2025 at 6:54:14 AM UTC-7 Mike in BK wrote: >>>> >>>>> Excellent insight. Would be great to see a pic of the Sam. Maybe the >>>>> Appaloosa will be your go-to and you can sell it to me, lol! Half >>>>> kidding, >>>>> but always like to see a well loved Sam if you have pics to post. Thanks! >>>>> >>>>> On Friday, October 31, 2025 at 10:56:29 AM UTC-4 >>>>> [email protected] wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> FWIW, I'm in a similar position and own a Sam and it's an amazing >>>>>> bike: I live in Chicago, most of my miles are commuting, limestone >>>>>> paths, >>>>>> streets and roads. I have a Hillborne and it is dreamy for all that, >>>>>> plus >>>>>> loaded rides on paved/good condition gravel roads. I'd describe the ride >>>>>> as >>>>>> super comfortable, stable, agile, responsive but not at all twitchy. >>>>>> From >>>>>> what you describe you do and aspire to do, it seems pretty ideal. It's >>>>>> really a wonderful bike that's so versatile. >>>>>> >>>>>> Having converted a vintage Rockhopper to be rivish in the past, there >>>>>> is just no comparison to the Sam. The Sam is so much livelier, more >>>>>> comfortable, beautiful, stable, and fun. That Rockhopper was a lot of >>>>>> fun >>>>>> and inexpensive, but to me, they are totally different rides. >>>>>> >>>>>> Re chainstays: They're long by standards of most contemporary bikes, >>>>>> just not quite as long as an Atlantis or some other Rivs. Some folks on >>>>>> the >>>>>> list find that relative shortness to be an advantage, as it makes the >>>>>> bike >>>>>> more maneuverable both on an off trail. If you find yourself lifting >>>>>> your >>>>>> bike up stairs, onto trains, into elevators, you might appreciate the >>>>>> shorter wheelbase, too. I know I've been in some situations where I >>>>>> thought: good gravy this is a big bike (57 Sam from 2021); thank >>>>>> goodness I >>>>>> don't have one of the longer models! >>>>>> >>>>>> All that said, I'm lusty for an Appaloosa, because I'm planning on >>>>>> some long distance dirt touring where I want big chunky tires, and a >>>>>> different setup than my Sam. But if that wasn't in the works, I wouldn't >>>>>> feel the need for any other bike. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Friday, October 31, 2025 at 9:24:37 AM UTC-5 Mike in BK wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi gang. I'm itching for my first Riv and decision time is upon me. >>>>>>> In Brooklyn I'm rather relegated to paved rides, usually laps in the >>>>>>> park. >>>>>>> I was never fast, but now I'm rather slow. I don't have a computer on >>>>>>> my >>>>>>> bike and can't remember the last time I did. I'm tired of clipless >>>>>>> pedals >>>>>>> and lycra shorts. I want to indulge in "the art of taking it slow" and >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> a bike that expands on that magic sensation I feel when I ride my 1981 >>>>>>> Trek >>>>>>> 710 with 531 tubing and longer chainstays. Bigger tires for starters >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> Grant's progressive designs. I built a '93 Rockhopper with Toscos, a >>>>>>> B17, >>>>>>> and 2.2 tires for riding upstate and it's fun! That frame's position >>>>>>> doesn't really work for longer rides and getting distance covered at a >>>>>>> reasonable rate. I had the idea that I would go down to just one bike >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> pick my perfect do-it-all Riv. I don't think that's very realistic, so >>>>>>> maybe the Trek will always have a use for strictly road rides. That >>>>>>> leaves >>>>>>> commuting, leisurely rides, and some gravel and trail riding when I can >>>>>>> get >>>>>>> to it. Hillborne you say? Not a bad idea, but I don't hear the same >>>>>>> glowing >>>>>>> reviews of "Cadillac" type ride, and supreme comfort like I do when >>>>>>> folks >>>>>>> write about Appaloosas, Platypi, and Charlie Gallops. Slack headtube; >>>>>>> long >>>>>>> chainstays; I'm buying in. The geo for the 61cm Charlie resembles the >>>>>>> 57cm >>>>>>> Appaloosa more than anything else. (I noticed the headtube of the Joe >>>>>>> went >>>>>>> from 72 degrees to 70 degrees not too long ago, maybe that started with >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> Sergio green run). I don't think the Charlie would be ideal for trails >>>>>>> under my 200 lbs, so I'm getting interested in the Joe. Antonio at RBW >>>>>>> advised me that the Joe might be too long and heavy for my needs and >>>>>>> recommended the Sam. I'm not sure if I'm jazzed about the Sam the same >>>>>>> way, >>>>>>> and no less important for such an investment, the lime olive Joe coming >>>>>>> up >>>>>>> is a way preferable color to the offerings of the Hillbornes >>>>>>> pre-selling >>>>>>> next week. I'd buy a used olive Hillborne (57cm) but no one ever sells >>>>>>> their Riv! Any feedback from folks riding recent issue Appaloosas and >>>>>>> Hillbornes would be very welcome. Thanks! >>>>>> >>>>>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. 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