!!! Don’t adjust bar reach by saddle adjustment! The saddle position is the anchor and lodestar of bike fit. Get it in the right place and leave it there. Then get all the rest adjusted in reference to the saddle.
Sorry for the exhuberance; I learned this the hard way over many years. Once again, Peter White on fitting: https://www.peterwhitecycles.com/fitting.php In particular: The Fore-Aft Saddle Position Now we get to what I think is the most important part of fitting a bicycle, the fore-aft position of the saddle. Once you get this right, everything else is easy. This position is determined more by how you intend to use your bike than by anything else. If you look at a typical bike, the saddle is behind the crank center, or bottom bracket. There's a frame tube (the seat tube) running from the cranks to the saddle, and it's at an angle. That angle partly determines the fore-aft position of the saddle relative to the cranks and pedals. That fore-aft position determines how your body is balanced on the bicycle. Your balance determines how comfortable you are, and how efficiently you can pedal the bike. Stand up straight in front of a mirror and turn to the side. Look at yourself in the mirror. When standing straight your head, hands, seat and feet are all fairly close to being in line with each other. Now bend over at the waist. Notice that not only has your head moved to a position ahead of your feet, but your rear end has moved behind your feet. If this were not the case, you would fall forward. Your seat moves back when you bend at the waist to keep you in balance. Your torso needs to be leaning forward for two reasons; power output and aerodynamics. With an upright torso, you can't use the gluteus muscles to good effect. Also, you can't effectively pull up on the handlebar from an upright position. An upright torso is also very poor aerodynamically. When cycling on level ground, the majority of your effort goes against wind resistance. The easier it is for your body to move through the air, the less work you'll have to do. With your torso closer to horizontal, you present less frontal surface to the air and don't have to work as hard to maintain a given speed. Obviously, the most aerodynamically efficient position may not be the most pleasant position to be in for several hours on a cross country tour. So there's a tradeoff. As you move to a more horizontal position, the saddle needs to be positioned further to the rear to maintain your body's balance, just as your rear end moves to the rear as you bend over while standing. It so happens that racers are more inclined to use a horizontal torso position than tourers, and racers are more concerned with having the handlebars further forward to make climbing and sprinting out of the saddle more effective. If a bicycle had the saddle directly over the cranks, you wouldn't be able to lean your body forward without supporting the weight of your torso with your arms. Because the saddle on a typical bicycle is behind the cranks, your seat is positioned behind your feet and your body can be in balance. Try this test. You'll need a friend to hold the bike up, or set it on a wind trainer. Sit on your bike with your hands on the handlebars and the crank arms horizontal. If you have a drop bar, hold the bar out on the brake hoods. Try taking your hands off the bar without moving your torso. If it's a strain to hold your torso in that same position, that's an indication of the work your arms are doing to hold you up. For starters, I like to put the saddle in the forward most position that allows the rider to lift his hands off of the handlebar and maintain the torso position without strain, while pedaling. You should not feel like you're about to fall forward when you lift off the handlebar. If it makes no difference to your back muscles whether you have your hands on the bars or not, you know that you aren't using your arms to support your upper body. If you are, your arms and shoulders will surely get tired on a long ride. But this is a starting position. Remember that bicycle fit is a series of compromises. So what's being compromised? Power. There's a limit to how far you can comfortably reach to the handlebar while seated. If the saddle is well back for balance, the handlebars will need to be back as well. But to get power to the pedals while out of the saddle, it helps to have the handlebars well forward of the cranks. Particularly when climbing out of the saddle, the best position tends to be had with a long forward reach to the bars. You can tell this is so by climbing a hill out of the saddle with your hands as far forward on the brake lever tops as you can hold them, then climbing the same hill with your hands as far to the rear as you can on the bars. Chances are you can climb faster with your hands further forward. So you need to find the best compromise between a comfortable seated position and reach to the handlebar, and a forward handlebar position for those times when you need to stand. Only an inch or two in handlebar placement fore-aft can make a big difference while climbing. That same inch or two in saddle position can mean the difference between a comfortable 50 mile ride and a stiff neck and sore shoulders! As you move the saddle forward from that balanced position, you'll have more and more weight supported by your arms, but you'll be able to position the handlebars further forward for more power. The track sprinter has the frame built with a rather steep seat tube angle, which positions the saddle further forward from where the tourer would want it. But again, the track sprinter spends very little time in the saddle. If you can't move your saddle forward enough or backward enough for the fit you want, don't despair. Different saddles position the rails further ahead than others, giving more or less saddle offset. Seatposts are available with the clamps in different positions relative to the centerline of the post. So, how do YOU want to balance on YOUR bike? Do you want to emphasize speed and acceleration? Do you care mostly about comfort and enjoying the scenery? The answers to these questions determine how you position the saddle, not some computer program or someone's system of charts and graphs. How your best friend fits his bike should have no bearing on what you do even if he has exactly the same body proportions as you. YOU know why you ride a bike. Only YOU know what compromises you are willing to make in order to achieve your purposes on a bicycle. You may have a bicycle for short fast rides, and another for long tours. Just as the two bikes will have different components so as to be well suited for their purposes, so might the fit be different. The rider hasn't changed. You are still you. But your purpose has changed. The light, fast bike for short rides will likely have a more forward and lower handlebar position than the tourer. And so the saddle may well be further forward too. As you move the saddle forward or rearward, you are also changing the effective saddle height, relative to the cranks, since the saddle rails are usually not perpendicular to the seat tube. So be prepared to change the seat post extension as you adjust the fore-aft saddle position; lowering the saddle as you move it back to maintain the same leg extension, and raising it as you move the saddle forward. On Sat, Mar 21, 2026 at 8:49 AM Galen Gruman <[email protected]> wrote: > Thanks for the suggestions. Keep them coming! > > I’ll be trying adjustments as the advice rolls in. Today, I’m moving my > seat forward a few cm to see if the shortened reach helps. > > Then I’ll try adjusting the handlebar height, which currently has the tops > at slightly below seat level (top of bar just above bottom of saddle). > (Maybe I’m too low for sustained drops use and too high for sustained tops.) > > After that, we’ll see > On Saturday, March 21, 2026 at 7:19:11 AM UTC-7 [email protected] > wrote: > >> Have you tried raising your bars slightly? The last time I had this issue >> raising the bars to take a little pressure off my hands solved the problem. >> I do wear gel gloves for longer rides, and do think they help. Interesting >> that your bike fitter hated the Roadini. >> Randy in WI >> >> On Saturday, March 21, 2026 at 4:21:14 AM UTC-5 [email protected] wrote: >> >>> I’m glad this works for most people. But for the record, this method >>> does not work for everyone; it doesn’t work for my sensitive left palm, >>> which gets numb if left on one position in the hook no matter how it rests >>> on the bar — and I move it around frequently to keep numbness at bay for as >>> long as possible, which on a good day is about 40 - 45 minutes. My right >>> palm as I said is perfectly comfortable in the hook, tho’ yes, I avoid that >>> dip. >>> >>> On Sat, Mar 21, 2026 at 1:35 AM Guy Jett <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> I had this problem years ago and it is easily solved. >>>> >>>> Take a look at the base of your hand near where it meets your wrist. >>>> Between the muscle supporting your thumb and the "muscle" supporting your >>>> pinkie is a slight "dip" in the center. The main nerve to your fingers >>>> runs through this area. Putting pressure here will numb them starting with >>>> the pinkie. It can also do long term damage! It also seems to be a >>>> "logical" place to put your hand on the handlebars. >>>> >>>> This problem went way once I trained myself to rotate my hand position >>>> slightly to move the pressure to the base of the thumb. >>>> >>>> It took awhile but this slight shift now feels natural. Anyone >>>> experiencing similar numbness should do this as well and -- problem solved. >>>> >>>> GAJett >>>> >>>> On Fri, Mar 20, 2026, 9:26 PM Galen Gruman <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> (tl;dr? Just to the bottom for the questions.) >>>>> >>>>> I've been experiencing numbness in my outside fingers on my 61cm >>>>> Roadini with 54cm Noodle bars on an 8cm Tallux stem. Particularly after 30 >>>>> or so miles of on-road riding. It's become clear that most of the numbness >>>>> comes from gripping the bottom curve of the drops so I can keep my index >>>>> fingers on the brakes when riding curvy roads, downhill, and in areas with >>>>> traffic and driveways/intersections where quick brake access is needed. I >>>>> get much less numbness when I'm riding the flats of the drops near the bar >>>>> end, and that numbness is not focused on the outside fingers. >>>>> >>>>> I ride the drops nearly exclusively; I find the tops give me less >>>>> control and the hoods feel too far away. Back in the 1990s, I routinely >>>>> rode my Nishiki's tops with safety brakes, but I've never liked riding so >>>>> far forward as to favor the hoods. That hasn't changed now that I'm riding >>>>> a road bike again. I rode a 58cm Trek Domane last fall for a month and >>>>> found that riding the hoods was uncomfortable and quick to numb my hands, >>>>> and the whole far-forward geometry made me feel unstable and the 44cm >>>>> handlebars reduced my range of motion. (I have wide shoulders, and so I >>>>> previously rode an XL Trek FX3 hybrid for the width and stability; the L >>>>> size that the Trek bike shop recommended was again too small.) >>>>> >>>>> Riding the wide drops on the Roadini and reaching the brakes from the >>>>> drops not the hoods took care of all that. >>>>> >>>>> Still, with the hand numbness on longer Roadini rides, I thought maybe >>>>> I should get gloves with greater padding than my current ones, especially >>>>> as I am riding longer distances (I've done a couple metric centuries and a >>>>> true century planned for summer). When I went to the LBS to check out the >>>>> Specialized Body Geometry Dual Pad gloves, they suggested I get a quick >>>>> fit >>>>> check in case the issue was about fit not gloves. >>>>> >>>>> The bike fitter absolutely hated the Roadini: too big, too wide, quill >>>>> stems are bad, handlebar not ergonomic, and I shouldn't be riding the >>>>> drops >>>>> routinely. I know from test-riding a buddy's 57cm Roadini and from my >>>>> month >>>>> on the 58cm Domane that my 61cm Roadini is not too big. Yes, the reach to >>>>> the hoods is further than on the Domane, but it's fine to the tops and >>>>> drops, where I ride. I had seen the Riv posts about their thoughts on >>>>> handlebar width and geometry being so different from the major >>>>> manufacturers, but I didn't get how diametrically opposed they are until >>>>> the bike fitter's clear disgust. Wow! >>>>> >>>>> Anyhow, the Roadini is an incredibly comfortable bike, and I can go a >>>>> good pace on the road and feel fully stable on turns and stops, unlike >>>>> with >>>>> the Domane. >>>>> >>>>> Still, I wonder two things, and would live to get people's comments: >>>>> >>>>> - What are your thoughts on reducing or preventing hand numbness, >>>>> especially in my riding position of my hand at the base of the curve >>>>> with >>>>> my index finger on the brake levers ("trigger finger" position) That >>>>> bike >>>>> fitter thought the resulting hand angle was causing undue pressure, >>>>> but I >>>>> can figure out any adjustment to address that. >>>>> - Should I be trying to find a way to ride the tops more? (That >>>>> is, how concerning is it that I am so drops-oriented?) >>>>> >>>>> Thanks! >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>> To view this discussion visit >>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/fef4b7e2-ffa7-4e41-9af4-daec3c221e16n%40googlegroups.com >>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/fef4b7e2-ffa7-4e41-9af4-daec3c221e16n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>> . >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Guy >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> >>> To view this discussion visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/CAMHQv6Xcx-1PXVBkfMHvgNyyPGZSUDg2yRp5oM3iUUBkOGS_TA%40mail.gmail.com >>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/CAMHQv6Xcx-1PXVBkfMHvgNyyPGZSUDg2yRp5oM3iUUBkOGS_TA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>> . >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Patrick Moore >>> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Executive resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, letters, and other writing >>> services >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> *When thou didst not, savage, k**now thine own meaning,* >>> >>> *But wouldst gabble like a** thing most brutish,* >>> >>> *I endowed thy purposes w**ith words that made them known.* >>> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "RBW Owners Bunch" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/a7dfa119-a853-4384-af2d-2dac04108465n%40googlegroups.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/a7dfa119-a853-4384-af2d-2dac04108465n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > -- Patrick Moore Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Executive resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, letters, and other writing services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- *When thou didst not, savage, k**now thine own meaning,* *But wouldst gabble like a** thing most brutish,* *I endowed thy purposes w**ith words that made them known.* -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. 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