Yeah Patrick I'm the same. Every fall .... time to find some proper pants .... or in my case also.... knickers. I'm about to try these from Endura, called the Zyme 3/4. They look rather "normal". No liner. Diamond gusset crotch. http://s3.backcountry.com/900/EDA/EDA0036/EDA0036-CH.jpg http://www.hucknroll.com/endura-zyme-3-4-bike-short-mens?CMP_SKU=EDA0036&MER=0406&CMP_ID=SH_FRO011&mv_pc=r126&mr:trackingCode=F6FE76D1-9663-DF11-9DA0-002219319097&mr:referralID=NA
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