There was a test like that in Bicycle Guide, and it was very poorly done. There was only one tester, and he rode a bunch of bikes, each of them just once. So there was no back-to-back comparison, no going back to firm up impressions.
When we did a similar test, double blind, two of our testers could tell a relatively small difference in tubing wall thickness (0.7-0.4-0.7 instead of 0.9-0.6-0.9 mm) with 100% reliability. One tester could not. The tested frames were all on the flexible end of the range you see today in bicycle frames, so we didn't test a Surly LHT vs. an Alan or something like that. The full test was published in *Bicycle Quarterly* Vol. 6, No. 4<http://www.bikequarterly.com/contents.html>, but you can find some details here: http://janheine.wordpress.com/2011/02/27/a-journey-of-discovery-part-5-frame-stiffness/ The conclusion is that small differences can be very noticeable. However, I also doubt that you'd be able to tell a 20 g difference in tire weight. Somebody who believes they can tell this difference should do a double-blind test. It would be easy to do (you could just use some weights on the inside of the rim, underneath the rim tape). Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ On Saturday, January 4, 2014 9:52:14 AM UTC-8, Tim McNamara wrote: > > Unfortunately there is a boatload of contradictory scientific evidence > about these sorts of thing. Most of the differences we think we perceive > are based on the beliefs and assumptions we have about the equipment on our > bikes, rather than differences we can actually perceive. The felt > difference in performance between a 230 gm tire and a 250 gm tire is > primarily placebo effect (whereas the difference between a 230 gm tire and > an 800 gm tire might fall above the threshold of perceivable difference), > but many people will adamantly tell you they can clearly feel the > difference. In a double blind test they couldn't. > > I remember a number of years ago when a bike magazine had a bunch of > otherwise identical steel frames built from a range of tubing from low end > to high end. When the riders did not know which was which, they couldn't > tell them apart- yet thousands of published bike reviews have extolled the > superiority of one tube set over another, claiming dramatic differences in > performance. Those difference were "perceived" based on the expectations > of the reviewer. How many time have we read reviews composed of complete > nonsense like a frame being "stiff yet compliant?" > > Tim > > > On Jan 4, 2014, at 7:53 AM, Ron Mc <bulld...@gmail.com <javascript:>> > wrote: > > Bill, again, I'm telling you it's not a personal thing - it's in our > wiring to recognize slight changes, especially where work is concerned. We > don't feel the baseline work, what we feel is the change from the baseline > work. > Bike riders feel weight difference in wheels more than anything else, > because we feel the responsiveness it produces. For racers, total weight, > aerodynamics (i.e. skinny tires) all add up for the slight edge that may > nose them ahead by the finish line. But the rest of us know if we have > light wheels when we start up the hill and we know if we have efficient > rolling tires when we crest it. > > On Friday, January 3, 2014 12:28:45 PM UTC-6, Bill Lindsay wrote: >> >> " It's the next subtle increment that we feel. So yes, subtle >> differences in wheel inertia are more significant to us than adding mass to >> the bike frame. " >> >> and I never once said you can't feel it. If the small difference is a >> big deal to you, that's perfectly fine. >> >> Do lighter wheels spin up faster? Yes! >> How much faster? A tiny bit faster. >> Is that tiny bit a big deal to some riders? Absolutely >> >> If you can feel the difference and if you like it better then do it. >> It's great. None of us are racing or timing ourselves. If it feels a lot >> faster, who cares if it isn't actually measurably a lot faster? If it >> feels MUCH easier to pedal, who cares if it isn't actually measurably much >> easier to pedal? >> >> Trust me, I'm a tires guy. I've got ~30 pairs of spare tires in my parts >> bins. Sometimes I run skinnier tires. Why? Because they *feel*different, >> and sometimes I prefer to do it. I >> *feel* like it. Sometimes I decide to run 700x25, sometimes 700x28 and >> sometimes 700x35. They feel different and I run what I feel like running. >> Feeling is a big deal >> >> I remember a similar back and forth when a vendor made a crankset in 170 >> and 175 and refused to offer it in 172.5mm. He emphatically stated that >> the reason he wouldn't do it was because it is impossible for a rider to >> feel the difference between 170 and 172.5. A lot of people (including me) >> got kind of miffed about it. I sure as heck can feel the difference. >> Could I get used to a 170? Sure. But I've got 6 bikes and they all have >> 172.5s. I'm not switching cranks on all my bikes, and I don't want to >> RE-get-used-to the bike every time I ride it. I can feel the difference >> and I prefer to run 172.5. I doubt there's a measurable performance >> benefit, but if somebody told me NOT to run 172.5s because it's impossible >> to feel the difference, I'd inform them that they are wrong. Similarly, I >> am not telling you, Ron, NOT to run skinny tires. I'm not telling you >> whether you can feel it or not. I'm not telling you what you should >> prefer. If I did any of that I'd be a bigger jerk than I already am. >> >> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "RBW Owners Bunch" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>. > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com<javascript:> > . > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
