Hey I hear ya. I wasn't defensive. It just got me thinking. BTW, I would love to do that. I am a software developer, and I work with Small to Medium businesses. Our product helps people run their company better. I want to eventually hook up with some of these ministries that help homeless folks who have skills with computers and operations to train as help desk and consultants. By the time they are done, they will be knowledgeable enough to run these types of businesses. I would also love to help people learn how to keep their books and such. It would be neat to use gifts and skills to help others, instead of just trying to make money. I agree with your view on the traditional church problem. We just don't know what this guy did, but I am painfully aware of oth what I have done, and what I haven't done iin responses to these situations. Uggghh. Sean Henry Master Solutions, LLC. Don't Just Manage Your Company, MASTER IT!!!! Small Business Software Solutions http://www.mastersolutions.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Rick Carr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 8:02 AM > To: Discussion List; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: Snakes, 57 Cents, and Satan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sean Henry [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sean wrote: > "....In the original responses to this, there was a statement made that > this > pastor didn't respond to the need of the little girl.... How do we know > the > guy didn't help her out, and her family?" > > reply: > I stand corrected. We don't know. > > We do know that she died two years later, still living in a tenement. To > which the church responded with building more classroom space, a > university > and a hospital. > > My question was poorly stated for the sake of time. What I was wondering > was, why we as believers, not just the IC, and not just the pastor in that > situation, fail to reach out in ways that will help get people out of the > tenements, and indeed even eliminate the tenements. > > Why not, as Tony Campolo has suggested, through out the week, open up > those > classrooms [vacant thru the week & used on Sunday only] to individuals > seeking to start a business and help them do so with little or no > overhead. > Not only could they have a source of income, but some would also provide > jobs for others. Why not instead of building bigger meeting places, use > the > money to buy old buildings and renovate them into better living quarters > for > those in need, and hire them to do some of the work, and in the process > maybe even learn a skill they could use to get a job elsewhere. > > Sorry that it came across as an attack on the pastor & church in the > story. > It was meant to speak to a much broader concern. > > Sean wrote: > "The interesting assumption was, he was "IC", and it mentioned buildings > and > fundraisers, which we "HC" people hate (it is hate BTW, I have seen that > word used, but it seems to be a good word to describe my interpretation of > undercurrents), so he must have been just like what is disliked, or hated, > or inconsistent with "what God has shown/lead/brought" ME too etc... > > reply: > No, that was not the assumption. Again, it obviously came across that > way, > but you're assuming I assumed that because I didn't take the time to > develop > my point more thoroughly, just used that story as a springboard. However, > since you brought it up, what's wrong with hating fundraisers & buildings. > Hating the system is not hating those within the system. ["hate the sin > but > love the sinner" as it were]. And yes, tho' that pastor was likely a very > godly, loving, compassionate man, he was inconsistent with what God has > led > me to. Doesn't make me better than him. In fact, he may have had a much > deeper walk with the Lord than I'll ever know. But he was part of a > system > which has proven most ineffective at best in accomplishing the very things > it proclaims to be its goals. > > Sean: > "I bet the guy helped her. I bet he helped her family. And I am happy it > doesn't tell us, because he didn't tithe to do it, or get recognition. He > is referred to as kind hearted, he walked the girl into the Sunday School > in > defiance, and he came to her house after the parents called him (which > means > they knew where or who he was), and he cried. He is a brother." > > reply: > I'm assuming he didn't much because their condition apparently had not > changed in two years. > I helped a neighbor spread turf in his yard one day. Then, because of my > job, travelling over 4 states selling Christian music to Christian > bookstores, I didn't have, or make, time to maintain the relationship that > began that day. Two years later his wife left him. He came to me to > talk, > and said it was because I had helped him that day in the yard. He said he > didn't know anyone else to turn to. > So, I'm not knocking this pastor, whether or not he helped the family on > an > ongoing basis. Still, he showed some love, and whether it was because > they > knew this through things their daughter said, or because he contacted the > parents personally, or because he pastored the local church and contacting > the church was what you do when someone dies [could've been any of these > reasons], they knew to turn to him in their time of need. > You pointed out, "He is a brother." I'm guessing that was to confront me > for "attacking" him. I was being no more critical of him than I have been > of myself for not maintaining a stronger relationship with Robert & Mindy > during the 2 years between helping them sod their yard and their divorce. > It has nothing to do with HC vs. IC. > > Sean: > ".... But no one here said they assumed the best about a man who is called > a > brother, but railed against the points that they didn't like." > > reply: > Sorry I came across as "railing." My purpose was two fold, to point out > that a 3rd party post, without any personal comment or opinions from the > one > who sent it, and one that was totally unrelated to HC was not an > appropriate > post to this discussion list. I probably should have left it at that, if > I > was right in posting anything at all. But, since this is an HC discussion > list, I thought it worthwhile to try to put some perspective on other ways > this situation might be responded to. I should have realized there would > be > those that would totally misunderstand the positives I was attempting to > communicate -- that we as individual believers and/or participants in home > church/small group expressions of Christianity need to have a vision for > responding to such situations -- and see only that it was in contrast to > the > IC, or an IC situation and therefore *Must* be coming from hatred, a lack > of > love, and a desire to tear down the IC. > > Sean: > "I am sick of "HC". I am sick of how it is just as sick as anything else. > It is more towards what I agree with too, but not at the expense of the > "C"." > > reply: > Why is it that every post, even those worded much more effectively than my > original reply to this thread, that makes any comparison or contrast > between > IC & HC is seen as destructive. People are familiar with the IC. It is > the > starting point for most of us in understanding "C" at all. It is > virtually > impossible to discuss HC without referencing that starting point. Yes, > there is much that most of us dislike about the IC system, some that we > even > hate about it. But that doesn't mean that everything that is said is > intended to be hateful or destructive. Most of it is simply using the > familiar as a reference point to begin getting a better handle on how to > BE > a Christian now that we are no longer a part of that which has been so > familiar for so long! > > To *all* of those who see every such reference as being so unloving and > harsh and judgmental toward our brothers and sisters in Christ, *please!* > stop for a minute and just think it through. Can you come up with a > better > way to help people who've never known anything but IC better understand > how > to live day by day as believers now that they are out of the IC? Can you > find a way to help heal those who have been abused by the IC without ever > making any reference to the IC? If so, please right it out and submit it > as > possible articles to be posted on the HCC web page. I'm sure Tracey would > give it consideration! > In the meantime, please quit being so stinking judgmental and unloving > toward your brothers and sisters here on this discussion list that you > just > assume they/we are lacking in love, being harsh, judgmental, and > destructive > to the body of Christ. > > Rick C. ---------------------------------------------------- NetZero Platinum Sign Up Today - Only $9.95 per month! http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97
